Theology Central
Theology Central exists as a place of conversation and information for faculty and friends of Central Baptist Theological Seminary. Posts include seminary news, information, and opinion pieces about ministry, theology, and scholarship.
Vocation and Vocations
[This essay was originally published on February 5, 2016.]
The Reformers erected the doctrine of calling in reaction to the Romanist distinction between clergy and laity. At the time, Catholics recognized only two vocations: the calling to consecration (which typically involved joining an order) and the calling to ordination (priesthood). In other words, monks and priests had a vocation; other people did not.
Over against this distinction the Reformers insisted that God calls all Christians. Their vocation is whatever station enables believers to demonstrate God’s love by serving others. In the Protestant view of vocation, ministers are called—but so are bakers, farmers, shopkeepers, and tradesmen.
The Protestant view of vocation grows out of 1 Corinthians 7:17-22. In this passage, vocation refers primarily to God’s calling of the individual to salvation. That is the first and highest calling for any Christian—to be a child of God, placing His character on display in the world, working out our salvation. Paul’s point in this passage and its surrounding context is that every lawful station of life (marriage, singleness, slavery, freedom, circumcision, uncircumcision) provides the opportunity to do just that. We are to use whatever station in which we find ourselves for God’s glory. The Reformers’ doctrine of vocation—the Protestant doctrine of vocation—is really the Pauline and biblical doctrine of vocation.
This Pauline doctrine of vocation is probably what lies behind Paul’s cryptic comment in 1 Timothy 2:15. He says that the woman will be saved in childbearing if she continues in faith, love, holiness, and self-restraint. Paul certainly does not mean to teach that giving birth somehow forgives a woman’s sins and secures eternal life. Given the context, he is most likely saying that maternity is a station that allows a woman to demonstrate how God’s saving grace is working in her life. A minister exhibits his salvation through his preaching and teaching, but Paul forbade women to teach or usurp authority over men. Are they then relegated to the position of second-class Christians? Not at all! Maternity (and domesticity) enable the stay-at-home mom to place her salvation fully on display.
This is an important truth. Pastors have the privilege of spending hours each day in the Scriptures so that they might minister the Word of God. Stay-at-home moms may struggle to find a quarter of an hour for devotions. Some might think that the pastor occupies the more spiritual position, but that is not what Paul says. A woman who rightly fulfills her station as a mother is bringing glory to God, just as the minister is.
What is true of the stay-at-home mom is true of all lawful vocations. They are ways of showing God’s love by serving others. They are ways of working out our salvation. Every vocation provides a giant screen upon which the Christian can project the manifold grace of God.
The difference is that the pastor’s vocation takes him into the study, away from the rush and tumble of life, to listen quietly to God. The mother’s vocation takes her into playrooms and grocery stores, and she does things like changing diapers, preparing meals, and wiping runny noses. To use the traditional labels, the minister’s life is contemplative while the mother’s life is active.
The point is that both of these lives are callings. Both are spiritual. Both bring glory to God if they are conscientiously pursued.
Most Christians actually occupy multiple callings. One of those callings pertains to all believers: the calling to place salvation on display. Other callings are discovered in our particular situations. A married man is called to love his wife. A father is called to bring up his children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. Whatever we do to gain a living is also our calling, whether it involves balancing books, performing surgeries, or flipping burgers. Obviously some callings may change over time. A wedding marks the end of singleness (one calling) and the beginning of marriage (a different calling). A transition between jobs also usually marks a change in callings.
Some callings we choose; some are chosen for us. A slave does not typically choose slavery, though Paul says that if slaves are given a choice, they should choose freedom. Nevertheless, both slavery and freedom are callings. Sometimes our choice of callings is restricted by circumstances: there are no accountant jobs open, so we sweep floors instead. When such situations occur, we must not feel ourselves to be victims or become bitter against the calling into which God has led us. We must use it for His glory.
Other times God allows us to select from multiple options. How then should we choose? Too many Christians assume that the most financially rewarding option must be God’s calling. Sometimes it is, but often it is not. Callings should almost never be chosen on the basis of pecuniary considerations alone. Rather, we should ask, Where can I best place my salvation on display? How can I best show people God’s love by serving them? What am I equipped to do with excellence, and what will make the greatest difference for the Lord?
A man who would make a terrible pastor might make a wonderful truck driver. A woman who could never adapt to the mission field might make a good lawyer. Some young people who would be miserable in college might be more useful—and more happy—as plumbers or electricians. God not only calls people to different vocations, He also equips them differently for those vocations.
Every vocation deserves respect and even esteem. Christians who are farmers, bankers, doctors, airline pilots, police officers, short order cooks, managers, cashiers, actuaries, and stay-at-home moms have vocations that are just as significant to God as the vocation of the minister. Let us honor all, and make the most of the callings that God has given us.
This essay is by Kevin T. Bauder, Research Professor of Historical and Systematic Theology at Central Baptist Theological Seminary. Not every one of the professors, students, or alumni of Central Seminary necessarily agrees with every opinion that it expresses.
Psalm 82
Isaac Watts (1674-1748)
Among th’ assemblies of the great
A greater Ruler takes his seat;
The God of heav’n, as Judge, surveys
Those gods on earth, and all their ways.
Why will ye, then, frame wicked laws?
Or why support th’ unrighteous cause?
When will ye once defend the poor,
That sinners vex the saints no more?
They know not, Lord, nor will they know;
Dark are the ways in which they go;
Their name of earthly gods is vain,
For they shall fall and die like men.
Arise, O Lord, and let thy Son
Possess his universal throne,
And rule the nations with his rod;
He is our Judge, and he our God.
Blessings of Distance Education
This week, Central Seminary welcomed Ellis and Jillian Narcisse, distance education students from South America, to spend some time at our campus in Plymouth. The Narcisse family, along with their three children, are missionaries in Bolivia planting New Life Baptist Church. Their visit to Central Seminary coincides with a family visit to North America this spring and summer.
The global pandemic of Covid-19 opened doors for the Narcisse family in an unexpected way. Cell service became available for the school system in their remote village high in the Andes mountains. This newfound connectivity allowed Ellis to begin his Master of Divinity through Central Seminary’s distance education program. Jillian has also joined in, pursuing her M.A. in Biblical Counseling.
Central Seminary faculty and students were thrilled to have the Narcisse family join them on campus for classes. Their dedication to ministry and their commitment to continuing their education, even from afar, is an encourgament in our mission.
To learn more about distance education, visit our Distance Education page.
During the month of April, we are accepting free applications. Look up our programs and begin the process. We would love to assist in your studies of God’s Word.
Libraries and Bookstores
I learned to read in first grade. I loved it immediately. Being able to conjure meaning from black marks on a white page was like magic. I no longer had to rely on others to read stories to me. I could discover for myself what Dick and Jane, Sally and Spot were doing.
An aunt used to bless us with copies of the great children’s books. Together with books that my parents gave us, my siblings and I had whole shelves of reading. These included the Nancy Drew and Hardy Boys mysteries (we read them all, indiscriminate of gender). We had some volumes of the Bobbsey Twins, and I remember reading several Tom Swift books. We had abridged editions of classic literature, and I loved the Landmark historical series.
I must have been in fourth or fifth grade when my parents bought me a book of short stories by Edgar Allan Poe. That introduced me to horror. Though I did not find Poe particularly frightening, Algernon Blackwood’s short story, The Willows, haunted me for weeks.
It must have been about that time—fifth or sixth grade—that our class went on a field trip to the Sage Library in Bay City, Michigan. The building looked like a castle, and inside were more books than I’d ever seen. Not just shelves of them, but whole rooms and even floors of them. I was enthralled. Sadly, I’ve never been back, but the event began a love affair with libraries.
By the time I was in seventh grade my parents had moved into the small town of Freeland, where I learned that the Saginaw County bookmobile visited every two weeks. I was ecstatic. I received my first library card and, as I recall, this was where I first read Arthur Conan Doyle’s stories about Sherlock Holmes.
Two years later we had relocated to Iowa so my father could attend Bible college. Soon my mother was managing the campus bookstore. I can remember helping my father build sections of bookshelves for the store, some of which may still be in use after fifty years. This was my first contact with a bookstore, and I learned to love the atmosphere of a room filled with books for sale.
Mom’s job also helped my father to build his library. It gave her a line on publishers’ discounts and closeouts. We lived right across the street from the college, and Dad built a study in our basement. Soon it was packed with hundreds of books. I loved to sit at his desk and read his books. For example, Feinberg’s commentary on Ezekiel helped me to understand the opening chapters of that prophecy.
Within another couple of years, Dad had accepted a pastorate in a small town. Now his study was in the church building, and he had even more books. This room was one of my favorite places. Perhaps that is where I first discovered that, even in solitude, one is never alone when one is surrounded by books.
When I was a junior in high school I accompanied my father to a bookstore in downtown Des Moines. He pointed out the writings of C. S. Lewis and encouraged me to get acquainted. He even bought me copies of The Screwtape Letters and Out of the Silent Planet. I could not have guessed what a turning point that day would become.
About that time, indoor shopping malls became the rage. Ames had the one that was closest to our home, but Des Moines had a bigger one. Inside those malls were shops like B. Dalton Booksellers and Walden Books. Later on, Borders Books and Barnes and Noble joined them. For the next twenty years, any trip to the mall meant checking the discount tables in those stores.
When I was in Denver for seminary, one of the big mail-order distributors of theological books had a retail store in the south part of town. Several classmates and I would visit that store to look for bargains every few weeks. It’s where I bought my first copies of many of J. Gresham Machen’s essays. That, too, was a turning point.
During my first pastorate I learned that some of the big publishers operated their own bookstores in Grand Rapids, Michigan. On a couple of occasions I traveled to Grand Rapids specifically to raid the stores at Eerdmans and especially Kregel. They were wonderful places.
When I moved to Dallas for doctoral studies I discovered a Half Price Books just a mile from our home. It wasn’t huge, but it had a surprising selection of used books at good prices. The problem was that I had no money. I recall coveting a volume of Meister Eckhart’s works for something like two years before finally making a lowball offer on it. And my offer was accepted! I went home feeling like a great hunter that day.
Dallas was home to the Half Price Books headquarters. Their main store was located near Central Expressway and Northwest Highway. It was in a rambling old frame building with board staircases leading to the second floor. My children loved it as much as I did, and they would beg to go to the “wooden bookstore.”
Other bookstores were scattered around Dallas, and I got to know most of them. When I was planting a church in Sachse, we had to drive to Plano to copy our bulletins. My wife would make the copies at Office Depot while I took the kids next door to the bookstore. They would be too occupied ever to cause trouble. So was I, sometimes to my wife’s exasperation.
Of course, both my study and my home eventually began to overflow with books. I could see a problem looming—where to find more space for shelves? But then the world changed. By about 2005, Amazon was pushing brick-and-mortar bookstores out of business. By 2010, Kindle and Nook were beginning to replace paper books, and Logos was providing an electronic platform that greatly enhanced theological study. Around 2012 I began to shift seriously toward electronic books.
I still have several thousand physical books, but fewer than I once did. I have more than double the volumes on Logos, and many times more for Kindle. I have begun to cull most physical books if I own an electronic version.
It’s wonderful to be able to transport tens of thousands of volumes in a computer no larger than a clipboard. I love being able to read almost anything I wish, almost anywhere I want to read it. I’m more grateful than I can say.
But I miss bookstores. I miss their atmosphere. I miss the adventure of handling texts before buying them. I miss being able to leaf through the pages. I miss the smell. Sadly, those are experiences that are now receding into the past, and I feel sorry for the coming generations that will miss them.
This essay is by Kevin T. Bauder, Research Professor of Historical and Systematic Theology at Central Baptist Theological Seminary. Not every one of the professors, students, or alumni of Central Seminary necessarily agrees with every opinion that it expresses.
Rise, O My Soul, Pursue the Path
John Needham (?-1786)
Rise, O my soul, pursue the path
By ancient worthies trod;
Aspiring, view those holy men
Who lived and walked with God.
Though dead, they speak in reason’s ear,
And in example live;
Their faith, and hope, and mighty deeds,
Still fresh instruction give.
‘Twas through the Lamb’s most precious blood
They conquered every foe;
To His power and matchless grace
Their crowns of life they owe.
Lord, may I ever keep in view
The patterns Thou hast giv’n,
And ne’er forsake the blessèd road
That led them safe to Heaven.
Episode 50 – Balancing Education & Ministry
In today’s episode, we sit down with Pastor Tim Bonebright (M.Div. Class of 2024) to talk about balancing education and ministry. We discuss the process of preparing for the doctrinal defense and how taking classes has supplemented pastoral ministry.
Takeaways
- Preparing for the doctrinal defense starts with each systematic course, gets refined with senior seminar, and with feedback from professors.
- Taking classes at Central Seminary has helped in pastoral ministry, particularly in preaching and clarity of message.
- Pastors can benefit from theological education by gaining a greater understanding of the Bible and being better equipped to answer questions and address challenges.
- Seminary students can engage their minds and disengage from the challenges of ministry, finding refreshment in the study of God’s Word.
- The future of theological education is promising, with opportunities for global connections and the spread of the gospel.
- The professors at Central Seminary invest in their students and provide personal support and guidance.
Book Suggestions
- ‘Share Jesus Without Fear’ by Bill Fay
- ‘Tactics’ by Greg Koukl
- ‘Conversational Evangelism’ by David and Norman Geisler.
Quotes
- Speaking on the doctrinal defense: “Dr. Williams had said, ‘It’s really a celebration.’ And being on this side, I go, yeah, it really is! It really is a time of joy! And looking back (I wouldn’t say this during it) but that was fun because you’re talking theology with men that are godly men that you respect and men that know the Word very well.”
- “And that was phenomenal because now I feel like I’m better able to proclaim the word.”
- “There is the opportunity to learn from people in other continents and to see the ministry that God has given them and they are students of the Word. And I go, wow, I want to be a student like they are.”
- “I think each year I’ve been here, I’ve had different teachers that were my faculty and they would call me during the year just to check on me, just to pray with me.”
- “Look at Central, you won’t find a better school.”
- “It’s hard work, but when you get to this point, it’s worth it. It truly is.”
Full Transcript:
Ep. 50: Balancing Education & Ministry
Micah Tanis, Host
Welcome to the Central Seminary Podcast today. We’re glad you have joined us. We’ve got a special episode for you this week. This is during the time of our semester when we have our graduating students come in for their doctrinal defenses. We just had a Doctor of Ministry defense with Mark Herbster and a really neat time to go through that. We are currently in the time of going through our senior MDiv students. And I’ve got one of our senior MDiv students with us here in the podcast studio, Pastor Tim Bonebright.
Pastor Tim, Thank you and welcome to the podcast.
Tim Bonebright
Well, thank you Micah. It is great to be here It’s a joy to be on campus
MT: Yeah, and there’s a little extra joy in your voice today Tim because just just an hour and a half ago Tim Successfully defended his doctrinal defense. So congratulations Tim I’m sure that’s a weight off your shoulders?
TB: It very much is now I just have to finish up the last few classes and get back here for graduation
MT: So it’s great to have Tim on campus here because right now Tim is pastoring and Tim is pastoring in Kansas, I understand. What’s your church? Tell us just a little bit about your church in Kansas.
TB: Yeah, it’s Goodland Bible Church in Goodland, Kansas. Goodland is 17 miles across the Colorado -Kansas border, a little farm community. It’s a church of 60 to 70 people if everyone was there. Just a neat little church with some wonderful people there that love the Lord. We’re not a perfect church, but there’s just some dear people there that I love being able to serve with.
MT: And how long you’ve been pastoring there, Goodland?
TB: Coming up in June, it’ll be nine years. Excellent, yes. I accepted the call there in June of 2015 and moved there in July of 2015.
MT: We’ve got Tim here to just share a little bit about some of the events and the ways that some of our students go through the semester. Even this doctrinal defense, what is that? Is it like ordination? And it’s a neat opportunity. And so we’re going to ask some of those questions, but really what I wanted to bring Tim here to ask him some questions about how taking classes has supplemented pastoral ministry.
We’re going to get into that topic a little bit today on our podcast as we come here to think about how God is using His word and that deep study of it to supplement pastoral ministry. So first talking about the defense because that’s just what was happening today.
What was some of the preparation for that doctrinal defense?
How did you prepare the documents necessary for that? What was that process for you?
TB: Well, as a student, you go through the systematic classes, but what you do as a senior is there’s a Senior Seminar that Dr. Brett Williams leads, and each week you present a different area of systematic theology, and you talk through it, and then he sends it back to you with comments on it, and then after the semester, you put it all together, you make the changes that are necessary or that he recommends, and then you send it back to him.
And then he has a few more comments. And once that’s done, it’s given to the, to the professors and you show up to, for them to question you, but it’s, it’s actually a very, a longer process than just what I said, but it’s a very helpful process. Dr. Williams does a great job of engaging the seniors and helping them not necessarily trying to change what they think, but to sharpen it and, and help them to kind of formulate how they, how they, how they think in a way that’s, that’s clear and concise and able to be presented not just in a doctrinal statement but to the teachers as you defend the doctrinal statement.
MT: Going through the process as you just went through that today about two hours, maybe just some of your thoughts as you were going through and presenting that. I understand you’ve gone through ordination so you’ve pursued that process and then now with a doctrinal defense just fielding some of the questions. What was that similar to Sunday school? Teaching, pastoring?
TB: Yes, in some ways in that you get questions but the difference is in Sunday school, there are people looking to you for the answer that they don’t know. In this situation, they’re looking for the answer that they know and they want to hear your answer. And so it’s similar to ordination, but it’s a bit different because it’s with the teachers, the professors here, it really is a time of learning.
And what I found helpful is they started out and I was expecting to be grilled and just immediately out of the gate, just question after question, just rapid fire, kind of how ordination sometimes can be, but it was, they explained the first doctrine theology proper, gave a short concise statement of my statement, and first moment there was silence. But then instead of asking questions, they looked at something, well consider this, and consider this, and not that there wasn’t questions, but it was walking me through things, and if there was something that maybe I wasn’t a little clear on, they would actually ask me questions in a way that would help me to get to an answer and that they suspected I had.
And so that was very helpful because
it was Dr. Williams that said, it’s really a celebration. And being on this side, I go, yeah, it really is. It really is a time of joy. And looking back, I wouldn’t say this during it, but look back and go, that was fun because you’re talking theology with men that are godly, men that you respect, and men that know the Word very well.
MT: I want to get into the meat of our conversation today to talk about how that has equipped you or it was right along with the process of pastoring. So taking your classes, how has taking the classes at Central Seminary been helpful in your pastoral ministry because you’ve been doing both for these many years?
TB: Yeah. Well, it’s funny you asked that because I started at Central because I had gotten on at Goodland Bible and I was growing. And I was at the place in life where I realized I don’t have all the time in the world. Because when you’re 20 and 30, you’re going, OK, I got a lot of time. But then as you get closer to 40, you go, I need to speed up this process. And so I knew Dr. Pratt from Maranatha where I went to college. And I really respect him and connected with him at a convention and said, that’s where I want to be because they had a distance program. And it’s been very helpful because Central isn’t a seminary that is easy but it’s also a seminary that wants to help pastors and wants to help people in ministry. And so they will engage you and engage your mind and challenge you, but they also want you to be successful in ministry. For the church, for the gospel is truly a line that not just is on the slogan, but is what Central does. So it was very beneficial and kind of a broad scope in this side of it six years later that it just, it just, it prepared me in ways for ministry, for pastoring. And I can get into more of that as we get into that.
Central isn’t a seminary that is easy but it’s also a seminary that wants to help pastors and wants to help people in ministry.
MT: Speaking, thinking of your church family, what are some of the benefits they’ve received of you being in seminary? I know that can be a balance and we’ll talk about that in a few moments, but what are some of the things that they get to take some of the classes alongside you, meaning you’re taking a class and then you get to maybe teach on that right away the next semester or next year?
TB: Yeah. Well, like part of it, again, big picture is a greater understanding. I’d taken Greek in college and then I didn’t use it and then I retook it here and incorporated that into my study. And then with Expository Preaching with Dr. Odens, he’s one of the best homileticians in the world if you were asking me. And so I feel like right now I’m at a place where I’m getting kind of all these things coming together where now when I preach I feel like I’m much more focused and even my wife will tell me that it wasn’t bad before but there’s the direction is better.
And so I get as far as for my church, I think there is better clarity in the preaching because now I’ve got the proposition, I’ve got the main points that connect to the proposition, or that’s the goal in preaching. And whereas before I didn’t think about that as much, alliteration was important, but which it’s not that important. A good proposition and good main points are far better than alliteration. So that has been beneficial.
We could say that that there’s times where maybe I do a paper and then I can teach on that. In fact, there was a paper that Dr. Bowder asked the question of, is homosexuality ever allowable? And so I normally don’t teach Sunday School, but there was one week I did and I said, well, I can do a regular lesson or we can answer this question and I’ll let you guys vote. And they voted on that. So we had a good hour conversation because somebody could say, well, no, move on. Well, okay, we agree with that, but… Why? Because these are questions that, and I even said, your kids and your grandkids are being brought to their attention, because there are some people that are presenting ideas that are really capturing hearts and minds, and they’re going, okay, yeah, well, how do we respond? And I couldn’t have done that had I not been in… Well, I could have, but being here at Central made it a lot easier.
MT: Being a pastor, down in Kansas, what were some of the formats of classes that you took to complete your MDiv. Were you pretty much all online? Were you able to take in a week modular? How did you take the classes to finish your degree?
TB: Through Zoom mostly. I was here one time for a modular in the fall of, spring of ‘19, excuse me. My goal was to be here on campus more, but life and family and kids happened. And so COVID. Well, COVID happened, but you got to take the classes. Yeah. The nice thing about Zoom is if you are in ministry, you can get a top-notch education and still be involved in your ministry. The bad thing about it is you don’t, once class ends and they click close on the Zoom room, you’re done. And so you don’t get that interaction, which is a part of seminary that is helpful, but not necessary.
MT: Speaking of that interaction, what are some of the ones, and just even talking with the professors, I would hear your name come up, especially my office right next to Dr. Pratt, so I’d hear your name up. What were some of the interactions that you were able to continue? I understand you had even Dr. Pratt down to your church. How were you able to get some of that interaction as a pastor?
TB: Well, one of the wonderful things is that I’m a firm, let’s say, believer in Central, but I very much appreciative of Central Seminary and the ministry here because you get teachers that are, like I said earlier, very knowledgeable. They’re godly people, but they invest in the students. And so as my teachers, they would interact with me. If I were to call them and have a question or want to talk through things, they are available for their students. They will stop what they’re doing if they’re able to engage with you. If they’re not, they’ll get back with you and they will.
They’re there for you in a way that I haven’t seen in any school that I’ve been a part of. And they treat you as one of them. And that’s really an incredible thing because these are people that I look up to, that I appreciate and have great respect for. They treat me as a friend.
MT: You spoke about the strength of the study, the rigor of that study. How did you balance that? You’ve got a personal life and anybody that would be looking or pursuing to take a class. You’re also a pastor too. How did you balance those parts of learning and pastoring and family? How did you learn in that balance?
TB: Well, with great difficulty and sometimes not too well. But it’s one of those things, whether you’re in seminary, there’s always the ebb and flow of life. And so what I would, how I would do that is some nights would stay up after the family would go to bed and do some reading. And so there were some nights that I didn’t get as much sleep. And then, how can I say, I compartmentalize where I have, okay, certain days I’m gonna work on this, and then this day I’m gonna work on this. And so, because a lot of times what it would be is there was one semester that had a lot of work.
I was in Greek exegesis and Hebrew exegesis at the same time. And that was pretty taxing, but I would, after class on Friday, then put away the seminary stuff. And then at that point, really focus on on church stuff. And but then throughout the week, you’re you’ve got church stuff that you’ve got to do. And then there’s also the you can only do what you can do. Yeah. And so even with seminary, there’s certain things I would like to pursue this further. I just can’t. And so I’ve got I’ve got to preach on Sunday. And that’s more important. And so, again, not too well. I didn’t do this too well, but I told my wife I’d rather succeed as a pastor than as a seminary student because I’m a pastor before I’m a seminary student, but the seminary student is to help me as a pastor. And so sometimes I probably should have put the seminary stuff away sooner, but one of the things that I like about being a seminary student is you can engage your mind that way. And ministry’s hard sometimes, and seminary allows you to kind of disengage. Maybe it’s wrong for me to say that, but it’s so you have to be careful that you don’t disengage what God has called you to do for something that is there to help you in your calling.
MT: If you were giving advice to a student sort of like yourself, maybe looking even back at yourself who’s going into a pastorate and saying hey, I don’t know if I can start this what if I’m gonna pursue it What advice would you give somebody? Pursuing a master’s degree a master’s divinity. What what would you tell them?
TB: I would tell them do it. But as you start maybe start slow. Kind of get your feet wet to where you start it and then you’ll see that you can do this and that if they were here at Central, they have people there to help them along the way. It’s not that somebody’s pushing you into the deep end and saying, well, we’re gonna see if you can sink or swim. It’s like they’re there with you, kind of walking with you to help you through this process. And so I’d say do it. And then I would say, get from it what you can and that take advantage of the opportunity because it is a wonderful opportunity.
MT: Do you remember any turning points in your seminary education where it started to maybe even take the next step or just defining moments through the time that you were taking the classes?
TB: Yeah, I think one of them was when I did the first year Greek and didn’t really necessarily incorporate that into my study, but then as you get into syntax, you’re now able to start incorporating it into your study and to where you’re looking at, okay, this is this part of speech, but how’s it functioning? And then you’re learning the diagram and different things like that that a lot of people are going, okay, I don’t want to do that, but when you’re studying the word of God to preach and you’re seeing how God’s word is, what the writer is saying and you’re able to get it and in starting to do that, was able to start to see how, OK, this is how this, this what the main point is, and here’s how he’s doing that.
And then so that to me was a turning point, because now I’m incorporating on a weekly basis what I’m learning here. And then with finishing up that and then taking the expository preaching where we’re now I’m getting how I can take this Greek that I’ve learned and now turn it into to a sermon. And that those were two kind of defining moments for me that I’m applying what I’ve learned on a weekly, daily basis.
And that was phenomenal because now I feel like I’m better able to proclaim the word.
MT: Going back to your church, what are some things you’re excited about in the next year or two in your ministry? One, not having classes probably, but the opportunity to, hey, completing it. What are some things you’re looking for with just with your church family?
TB: I think an element that I’m looking forward to is having some more time freed up to engage in some things with the people that I wasn’t able to do. Because if you’re going to do this, you do have to block out times. You have to be more structured in your schedule. But I think there are some things I’m already thinking through of how can I engage the people in a way that I wasn’t necessarily able to while in classes. And just to whether it’s have them over to my house more or just some different ideas that I have of fellowship with the people because churches need that.
MT: What are some of the things that excite you about shepherding the congregation that you’re excited about? It’s our world can look at all of the news cycle. Everything is. We open our newspapers today. What are some things that excite you about pastoring?
TB: To be able to walk with people and see when they make, I don’t want to say connections, but when the word of God at times comes alive, where, I don’t know, comes alive would be the right word, but where they have that moment where they just go, I get it. And you see the changes that they make or you’re able to walk with them and be with them.
And then also another thing that excites me is to be able to learn from them because we often here we’re at Central Seminary and there’s some really smart people here. But one of the things that’s refreshing about ministry, these are people that are just faithfully serving the Lord. And to be able to just do life with them and do ministry is a joy. And like my church, they want to do a workday at my house here in a couple of weeks. And it’s just to be able to love people and be loved by them in something deeper than sports, but something eternal is, there’s nothing better. Nothing better.
MT: Being down in Kansas, you mentioned just a few miles from the Colorado border. What does some of the fellowship that you look like with other pastors, how are you able to rub shoulders with other pastors that around? It’s a neat opportunity. I’ve heard you mentioned some of those ones that Dr. Pratt, you got to run into him. How do you pursue some of that fellowship out in Kansas?
TB: My church is part of what’s called the IFCA International. And so they have regional meetings. The difficulty for me right now is we’re several hundred miles away from any like-minded church, whether it’s the IFCA or a like-minded Baptist church, something along those lines. And so there is some difficulty. And I haven’t been able to go to the regionals like I used to because I have a younger family and then being in seminary. But when I can, I do that.
And there’s different pastors that text me on Sunday mornings telling me they’re praying for me and things like that. And then also one of the things that has been beneficial about being at Central is the engagement that Central really tries. They’ve had to rethink this with Zoom, with a lot of students not being on campus, but how can they engage the students though they’re not here on campus? And so I’ve had good fellowship with these, the teachers and I’m able to call them and talk through a problem or they’ll pray with me when I’m going through some hardships. And that’s been helpful.
So as far as in my local area, there’s other pastors that are believers, but there’s some doctrinal differences that are, the gaps are pretty big. I’m friends with them, but it’s different than somebody like you or people here at Central where I know that I’m aligned with them pretty much. I’m not gonna say 100 % very close in a lot of things.
MT: I want to ask you about just the preparation that God has put you through to bring you to the point of pastoring and what are some of the unique ways that God shaped your life to be a pastor? That if I went back to 12-year-old Tim and told him, hey, you’d be here in 2024 just finishing up a doctrinal defense, what would you have believed yourself?
TB: I would have not. Oh. The funny thing is when I was a kid I was very shy. And I tell people that and they go, I don’t believe this. Ask my mom. I was incredibly shy and kind of give you the history. When I got to high school I started wrestling and I loved it and did well with it. And then God has used wrestling in a lot of ways to direct my steps. It got me to Maranatha where I met you as a boy and we had lunch early.
MT: And tried to talk me into the wrestling team at my high school. I didn’t do it, no.
TB: And then I moved to Colorado to do some wrestling and be involved there and I coached at a high school and went through some hard times and God had to humble me. Pride is something that unfortunately I still deal with. I tell my kids that you’ll be dealing with that till the day you die. Yeah, you don’t graduate from that. God had to break me and I was coaching at a high school and it was really God used coaching at the high school to kind of get me to a place where to recognize this is what God has for me. I’m called to serve him and engage and invest in people. And I was able to do that at the high school with the kids I coached, which ended up at a church in Colorado Springs. My pastor there was somebody I wanted to work under, Jeff Anderson, and got to work under him. And then it was a two-year position to get me to go to Goodland and then well, not that I thought I was going to go to Goodland, but the funny thing is, a year before I went to Goodland, he had mentioned Goodland Bible Church and I said, not going to Kansas. So here I am. Yeah. Yeah. And now you claim Kansas. I claim Kansas. I grew up in California. I don’t claim California. I claim Kansas.
MT: What are your thoughts on the future of theological education? You’ve seen a shift from both taking an undergrad, Maranatha like I did as well, and then having the opportunity to take some of these synchronous courses and doing that. What are some things you see about the future of theological education?
TB: Well, I’m excited and encouraged because of the open doors that people have. One of the exciting things about being a student here at Central is I’ve got classmates in Africa. And initially I thought, well, this is great that Central can be a blessing to these pastors in Africa. And it didn’t take me but a day or two to go, no, these guys are a blessing to us. This guy’s a blessing to me. And so there is the opportunity to learn from people in other continents and to see the ministry that God has given them and they are students of the Word. And I go, wow, I want to be a student like they are. So there’s encouragement that I have. It’s encouragement for me personally that I was able to do this. And then there’s down the road to continue here at Central and some of the other opportunities they have here. And so it’s, I’m excited for the future with this.
And one of the exciting things is it’s just another avenue for the word of God to get out. I love one of my favorite verses is where Paul says the gospel cannot be changed. And one of the exciting things, one of the things I enjoy about Central is this is just one of the ways that the gospel is moving forward. I get to be a part of it at my church and through the ministry of Central.
MT: I got to step into the very end of your doctrinal defense, really, when they were congratulating you that, Tim, you passed. And we’re glad to say that. And as it was really sweet to hear you just share some of the impact that the professors had had on you, what are some of maybe those professors or those moments that they took that just had a deep impact in your life of just stepping into you and walking with you in ministry?
TB: Yeah, it’s just Dr. Pratt when I reconnected with him at the ISA convention, just first thing he says to me is, Dr. Pratt, he says, Tim, call me John. I said, yes, Dr. Pratt. And just the engagement as a friend, as a fellow believer and as a friend, as an equal was just as, well, it’s funny because at the convention, I reverted back to a 21-year-old kid because he was my college teacher where I’ve got to sit straight up. My wife’s sitting next to me. She’s cracking up. I’m not doing what I normally do. I’m sitting still. But it’s just the fact that he treated me as a friend, or there was a time where every class period they’ll start with prayer, and sometimes they’ll say any prayer requests.
And so I can give personal requests, I can give pastoral requests, and there was one time where in church history I just said, pray for me, there’s a situation. And after class I was able to call Dr. Shrader who taught the class and explain him a little more. He said, I’m meeting with the other teachers, and we will pray for you. And then in dealing with that there’s times where you get uneasy, and I was able to call him and he prayed with me. And so they are there for you to take your calls not just on hey, I got a question on this academic issue, but I’ve got this personal issue or I’ve got this pastoral issue and I just need some counsel. I need some help. And so each teacher here, even the adjunct professors, they will connect with you on a personal level and just engage you as a person, which is very important.
MT: It’s a sweet thing to see how students are able to come together. One of the things you guys have is a small group where you get to meet with a professor every so often. What are those like, just some of those small groups where you’re meeting with a professor, who is your maybe small group leader right now? And then what does that look like to get to be in that small group?
TB: My small group leader now is Dr. Bruffey. He’s the first-year Greek teacher, the librarian, and then the Registrar. And Dr. Bruffey is a unique and wonderful man. And so when we meet with him, we get there and he just says, I’ve got no agenda. Let’s just talk. And so you just get to talk. You can talk about ministry. And there’s times where it does get into academic. He goes, I’m trying to stay away from that, but you know, you take it where you want to.
And so you can and then kind of tell where you’re at in life and ministry and then just and I think he tries to connect individually with each student because I remember after one class we talked about connecting and after one meeting he just we just both stayed on and he visited with me for 20 -30 minutes. Excellent. And so that’s because I think each year I’ve been here, I’ve had different teachers that were my faculty and they would call me during the year just to check on me, just to pray with me. And that was very, that was nice. That’s nice. That’s good. Something that we love to ask in the podcast as we have our guests on is maybe a book that has been helpful to you. Recently, I know you’ve read a lot, so you’ve been studying, so you don’t have to pick a textbook. But Tim, has there been a book that has been a particular encouragement to you, maybe one you’re chewing on that you just want to share with our listeners? Maybe they haven’t picked up, maybe they know about it.
Yeah, one of the classes I’m finishing up this semester is personal evangelism and world missions. And there’s several books that Dr. Jeff Brown has us read. He’s an adjunct professor, is dealing with evangelism. And so there’s a couple books he had us read that had been helpful. One was Bill Fay “Share Jesus Without Fear.” And one of the things that was encouraging in that book that Bill Fay talked about is that the responsibility is to share the gospel. And we always worry about, well, will I say the right thing? Will I do it the right way? And he says the only wrong thing is not to share the gospel. Take those opportunities.
Another book in that class was Greg Koukl’s “Tactics.” And one of the things I appreciated about that is how he approaches it by asking questions. And that we’re actually, having done this evangelism, we are, in my church, doing evangelism now. In Sunday school, we’re actually going through Tactics by Koukl and then I’ve been I’m dealing with the Lord’s Prayer and we’re going to move into doing some messages on evangelism Which I added that to it because I thought well, this is I want to do this.
And then I also read recently was David and Norman Geisler’s “Conversational Evangelism” and so those were good books to read because they give you ideas on how to share the gospel and one of the things I think sometimes we get, we feel like we have to do the whole work in one setting. And one of the things they’ll talk about is it’s, you might just be able to, as Coco says, put a stone in their shoe. And if that’s what you do, that’s good because then the next person can come. And so it’s to do your part and to engage them. And it’s been fun to do that because I’ve been able to have opportunities to where I have been able to share the gospel and I’ve seen the challenge that I’ve had to overcome and sometimes I’ve failed but then because I failed here the next time I make sure and I actually was able to at the nursing home there was a man that said I thought I was a goner last night and I sat down and I said well I want to talk to you about something and I explained to him the gospel like hey I want to know that you know I want you to know that you’re going to be with the Lord when you die and I said I want this friendship to last a long time but and I explained to him the gospel about, hey, you’re a sinner and Jesus is the Savior. Put your faith in Him, believe in Him, trust in Him to forgive you. And he prayed and said, God, forgive me for the wicked things that I’ve done. So I said, well, amen. So I… And earlier that day, the plumber is at my house and he told me about a heart attack and I was able to talk a little bit about Jesus, but I didn’t share the gospel. And I went to the nursing home and I said, I’m not gonna fail here. I’m gonna get it done. And when that opportunity presented, I said, I’m not blowing it here. Having read those books, I was ready. I was ready to engage this man.
MT: As we think of the works of God in our life, and I feel like we’ve been able to for half an hour just to testify of the works of God in your life. Anything else just that maybe within your personal, your family, that you just want to praise the Lord for working in a really sweet way, just as we close our time together that God’s active in your life. It’s evident to see, but just to testify of His work.
TB: Just His faithfulness. I sit here in a month; I will get to graduate. It’s been a six-year process. Just His faithfulness with me, even though there’s times I haven’t been as faithful as I should have been. I haven’t been as good of a pastor as I should have been, as a father, a student, but God has been faithful. And just one of the, there’s a couple things, other things.
One is the fellowship that I have with my church family. There are some dear people there that I love to do ministry with, that I love to serve with them. And then just my wife and my kids, they’re a blessing to me. And being able to know that tomorrow I get to go home and they’ll pick me up from the airport and I get to be reunited with them. And the next time I come, they get to be with me. And so it’s just that.
God’s faithfulness in my schooling, in my church, in my family, another is just His Word. It’s refreshing. Life can be exhausting. Whether you’re a pastor, a plumber, whatever you do, life can be hard. Life can be exhausting. And where do we go to find refreshment? You can take a vacation, great, but in a week you come back to work. But how can you be encouraged and challenged? Well, God’s given us His Word. And it’s to be able to open it up every week and study it and prepare sermons and then get up and proclaim it, it is a joy. There’s nothing else I’d rather do. So it’s a blessing.
MT: Thank you, Tim, so much for being on the podcast, just sharing what it was like to be a student but also be a pastor. Look forward to seeing you walk across the stage, get the cap and gown. It’ll be a neat opportunity just to see how God has been working and I’m certain that your family, your congregation is cheering along with you, but thank you for being on the podcast with us.
TB: Thank you and I look forward to you being able to watch me walk across the stage. Thank you for this time and again thank you Central Seminary. Continue to my prayers that Central continues to grow and it is second to none in my opinion. And I would encourage anybody who is thinking of seminary, look at Central, you won’t find a better school.
It’s hard work, but when you get to this point, it’s worth it. It truly is.
MT: Well, thank you for listening today to this episode of the Central Seminary Podcast. If you’d like to know more about Central Seminary, maybe taking a class while you’re in ministry, we would love to connect you with that. You can visit our website, and we would love to further you and strengthen you for the church, for the gospel. Thank you.
Looking to take a step into theological education?
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Apply today!
If you have an idea or suggestion for future podcasts, send us a note at communications@centralseminary.edu
2024 Commencement Exercises
Central Baptist Theological Seminary is thrilled to announce its commencement ceremony, honoring the graduates of the class of 2024. The ceremony will be held on Friday, May 10, at 7:00 PM. in the auditorium of Fourth Baptist Church. Diplomas will be conferred for the Master of Arts in Biblical Counseling, Master of Arts in Theology, Master of Divinity, and Doctor of Ministry degrees.
2024 Commencement Speaker: Dr. Lee Ormiston
Our 2024 commencement speaker will be area pastor and long-time faculty and board member Dr. Lee Ormiston.
About Dr. Ormiston
Lee Ormiston is the founding pastor of Family Baptist Church in downtown Minneapolis, where he continues to serve as Pastor Emeritus. He is also a Chairman of the Baptist Mid-Missions Foundation and has been part of the Elected Counsel of Baptist Mid-Missions for over 20 years.
Prior to planting Family Baptist Church, Lee served as Pastor of Evangelism at Fourth Baptist Church while attending Central Baptist Theological Seminary in Minneapolis. When Fourth Baptist Church and Central Seminary relocated to Plymouth in 1997, Family Baptist Church was planted to continue a witness in the inter-city Minneapolis neighborhood.
Dr. Ormiston received his Bachelor of Science in Mechanical Engineering from North Dakota State University, a Master of Arts in Biblical Studies from Central Baptist Theological Seminary, and a Doctor of Sacred Ministries from Northland International University. He is an adjunct professor at Bob Jones University and has taught for many years at Central.
The Word and the Testimony
by Dr. Richard V. Clearwaters
Founder of Central Seminary
Isaiah 8:20
To the Law and Testimony
Ever shall be Central’s song;
For within these sacred pages
We have found the Father’s Son.
Of our service He is worthy,
For His form we plainly see,
In the pages of the Volume
Daily witnessed there for me.
Words there great and oh so precious,
Ever speaking loud and clear
To lost sinners, poor and needy,
By God’s nature, now drawn near.
For the hunger that He gives us,
By this Self of His within;
We are pure in daily living,
Through the power He gives to men.
In the world and no part of it,
We will shun its sin and lust;
For the Savior’s image charms us
Through the Book, for us to trust.
In the highways and the byways,
In the halls with noise and din;
Here at “Central” He is central,
Like the Book that brings us Him.
It’s Gratifying
Central Seminary typically offers two weeks of modular classes in the middle of each semester. During those weeks, professors do not teach their usual courses, but they don’t just take the time off. We have plenty of other responsibilities to keep us busy.
One of the activities that commonly occupies our time is hearing defenses. This semester I’ve listened to three of those. One was by a Doctor of Ministry student who was defending his major project. The other two—which I listened to this Wednesday—were by graduating Master of Divinity students.
During their systematic theology courses, all students in all master’s programs are required to submit doctrinal statements for each discipline that they study: bibliology, theology proper, Christology, pneumatology, angelology, anthropology, hamartiology, soteriology, ecclesiology, and eschatology. Then, as Master of Divinity students approach graduation, they compile all ten of their individual statements and revise them into one comprehensive doctrinal statement. They receive help in crafting these statements and clarifying the language. Beginning in April, each graduating MDiv student must defend his or her (yes, we have women in the MDiv program) doctrinal statement before a committee of professors.
We have found that this exercise helps students in multiple ways. It gives them an opportunity to pull together the strands of the system of faith so that they can view it as a whole. It helps them to come to conclusions on issues that they may have been pondering. It also helps them to learn to say things in careful and precise ways. For some students, this is the point at which they move from passively being taught theology to genuinely doing theology for themselves.
The process also helps the faculty. If we find that students are less able to respond to particular questions, or that they have articulated certain areas poorly, we take these results as an indication that we need to strengthen our teaching at those points. Sometimes a confused result indicates that students are getting caught in the crossfire of professors’ divergent opinions without really being helped to think through an issue. We professors are all more concerned that our students fully understand the issues than that they come out on our side of intramural debates.
When they present their statements, we expect students to articulate their own views rather than simply to parrot what they have been told. Consequently, their doctrinal defenses sometimes bring surprises. Occasionally, a student may deviate from the theology that is taught at Central Seminary. As long as students remain orthodox (committed to the fundamentals of the Christian faith), these deviations will not prevent them from graduating. Such deviations do, however, trigger examination of the ways in which those topics have been taught.
Central Seminary tries to emphasize certain points of theological distinctiveness. We are fundamentalist and separatist. We are Baptist. We are cessationist. We are dispensationalist, premillennial, and pretribulational. We teach progressive sanctification. We hope to persuade our students of the correctness of those positions. In fact, we expect all our graduates to know how to defend these positions. If, however, having learned the positions and the defenses, a student remains unpersuaded, those disagreements will not prevent the student from graduating.
Some of our students come from different backgrounds. Some come from other denominations: for example, we have had Pentecostals, Presbyterians, and conservative Lutherans graduate from Central Seminary. Some are more broadly evangelical than we are. Some are uncertain about whether miraculous gifts are available today. Few have been exposed to a robust dispensationalism, and many incoming students are hesitant about pretribulationism and even premillennialism. Whatever the variation, the majority of students who graduate from Central Seminary end up holding positions that are closer to ours when they graduate than they held when they matriculated.
The two defenses that I heard on Wednesday were both competently done. One student had transferred in from a sister seminary. He had already taken most of his theology in that seminary. He also has several years of experience as a senior pastor, and he has already stood before an ordination council to defend his beliefs. His experience gave him an obvious advantage, and it showed.
The other student is a graduate of a university that does not share our faith tradition. He has an excellent education, and he is a bright guy who has no trouble conversing about intellectual, philosophical, historical, or theological issues. Because his educational background was not in biblical or theological studies, he came into the MDiv program at a bit of a disadvantage. His defense, however, showed that he has approximated the level of theological competence that a pastor should have to minister confidently.
As I listened to these two men presenting and defending their beliefs, it occurred to me how very blessed I am to have played a role in their preparation. To be clear, I have been only one voice in their development, and not even the most important one. Still, it is gratifying to see evidence of one’s influence upon another who does well. This is one of the most fulfilling parts of my vocation. I am grateful for students, whether present or past, who have learned well.
This essay is by Kevin T. Bauder, Research Professor of Historical and Systematic Theology at Central Baptist Theological Seminary. Not every one of the professors, students, or alumni of Central Seminary necessarily agrees with every opinion that it expresses.
O Thou, Who Didst Ordain the Word
E. H. Chapin (1814-1880)
O Thou, who didst ordain the Word,
And its strong heralds send,
We draw the holy veil of prayer,
And in Thy presence bend.
To this young warrior of the cross,
Who takes his station here,
Be Thou a teacher and guide,
And be Thy Spirit near.
A pure disciple, let him tread
The ways his Master trod,—
Giving the weary spirits rest,
Leading the lost to God,
Stooping to lend the suffered aid,
Crushed sorrow’s wail to hear,
To bind the widow’s broken heart,
And dry the orphan’s tear.
For war with error make him strong,
And sin, the soul’s dark foe;
But let him humbly seek for truth
Where’er its waters flow;
And when, O Father, at the grave
He lays his armor down,
Give him the victor’s glistening robe,
The palm-wreath and the crown.
Senior Doctrinal Defense
Highlights from our Senior Doctrinal Defenses
During the final weeks of their Senior semester, our Master of Divinity students complete their final step in completing their degree: the Senior Doctrinal Defense.
What is the Senior Doctrinal Defense?
As each M.Div. student progresses through the Systematic Theology courses, one assignment is to compile a doctrinal statement for each area of theology. The Senior Seminar course, taken in the student’s final year, prepares the student for his oral doctrinal defense (and ordination).
During the week of April 1-5, two of our Master of Divinity seniors stood before our faculty for their Senior Doctrinal Defense. [Tim and John pictured here below talking in the hallway following their defense]
Tim Bonebright, pastor of Goodland Bible Church in Goodland, KS, and John Marshall successfully defended their doctrinal statements and are a few weeks away from walking across the graduation platform to receive their degree.
The Master of Divinity at Central Seminary
The purpose of the Master of Divinity degree is to equip Christian leaders to handle the Scriptures skillfully and to love God rightly so that they may bring truth to others. The tremendous responsibilities of ministry leave no room for short-cuts in theological education. This program provides accessible, quality education you can utilize to lead a prepared and invested ministry for the church and for the gospel.
Are you looking to take the step into a deeper study of the Word?
Consider the Master of Divinity degree. This is the core of everything that we do at Central. It is in this program that we seek to train leaders for local churches. You will gain proficiency in Greek and Hebrew which will prepare you for the exegesis that is the foundation of everything. Historical and systematic theology classes will inform your work in the text and connect you to centuries of believers who have gone before. Counseling courses will train you to appropriately apply the meaning of the text to life’s problems. Pastoral theology will groom you to lead the way you ought.
Apply for Free in April!
Cambridge: A Lesson
I first entered Cambridge when I was fifteen years old. I was too young, really, to know what I was doing or to appreciate the advantages that had been presented to me, and I’m afraid that I rather frittered away my time on walks to the river, tramps in the nearby hills, and involvement in local theatrical productions (I really wanted to be an actor). Still, the experience was not entirely wasted, since I was introduced to many of the concepts that would come to govern my life. Furthermore, these were the years when I stumbled across J. R. R. Tolkien. At the time I had no idea who he was, but he influenced me almost immediately.
For health reasons I had to drop out of my baccalaureate program after my sophomore year. By the time I re-enrolled, I had met and married a wife, and she returned with me to Cambridge. We chose to purchase a home in the village, which placed us under some financial strain. Other factors made up for it, though, and those years were quite happy. My wife had completed her education before I returned to Cambridge, and I was studying Scripture and theology in one of the best undergraduate institutions for those disciplines. We attended a church that had been organized in the nonconformist tradition, but that had been led into Baptist convictions by a recent pastor. We made friends of both students and townsfolk. On top of all that, I got to take more of those walks to the river and in the hills.
After I was graduated with my bachelor’s degree, we left Cambridge to study and work in other places. Our travels took us to homes in Colorado, Iowa, Texas, and Minnesota. During most of that time we lived in big cities, though we did get to spend a few years in a rural town in Iowa. Through all our sojourn in the larger metropoli I missed the relaxed pace and familiarity of life in a smaller community.
Consequently, it was with real delight that I seized the opportunity last November to go to Cambridge, not now as a student, but as a minister and professor. While I hope never to stop learning theology, my vocation is now to teach it both in the classroom and from the pulpit. While engaging in that task, I get to see Cambridge from a very different perspective.
Our rooms in Cambridge are comfortable. We have a moderately large kitchen and a formal dining room. Our bedroom is adequately spacious for our needs. I have a study and my wife has a studio where she can practice her piano. Our sitting room is large enough to accommodate several guests in comfort, which is an advantage for any teacher. Furthermore, I have space for a workshop, which is a feature that not many English residences can boast.
Life here is pleasant. Once I leave my door, I can find a walking path within a hundred yards. It connects with other byways that will take me down to the river or through forests and parks, across bridges and up hills, and even into neighboring villages. The river itself is perhaps a quarter-mile from our rooms. The tallest tower in Cambridge also lies within an easy walk, just over a mile away. That walk then puts me in proximity to shops, cafes, ice cream, and baked goods. There are, of course, larger shopping facilities, but they are on the outskirts of town and require transport to reach.
The pace of life in Cambridge is gentle, and in our little segment of the community people seem especially friendly. I’m not used to having strangers inquire after my wellbeing, but that’s what I get near my rooms. Folk whom I don’t even know have begun to recognize me and to greet me, if not by name, then by title.
Because of the season, I’ve only visited the parks briefly. I’m looking forward to exploring them more during the summer. Perhaps my favorite park is one that follows the river for some distance. People both stroll and cycle along the trails, and some even skateboard. When I walk along the water, I can see anglers at its edge. Perhaps at some point I’ll give that a try. I’ve not seen rowers during the colder weather, but I expect they’ll be out when the days are warmer.
Some people don’t care for English cooking, but I enjoy most of it. I could live on toad-in-the-hole, bangers and mash, Cornish pasties, fish and chips, and scones (I’m indifferent to bubble and squeak, and I admit to hesitation about mushy peas). Of course, you can get decent pizzas in Cambridge now, and if you have a hankering for a hamburger there’s even a McDonald’s.
Life in Cambridge is certainly better than in the Twin Cities. Cambridge lies across the county line and is the seat of Isanti County. This geographical fact puts it outside the authority of the Met Council, which is absurdly controlled by liberals.
Yes, I’m talking about Cambridge, Minnesota, where I now have a home. The river near my home is the Rum River. The tower is an abandoned Forest Service lookout tower. The Cambridge in which I spent my teen and college years was Cambridge, Iowa.
Why? What were you thinking?
I have not written a word in the foregoing that isn’t absolutely factual. I’ve made nothing up, nothing at all. But if you didn’t already know me and my background, you might have come away with an impression that was not true to reality.
Here is the lesson. Telling the truth is not just a matter of stating the facts. It is a matter of clothing them in their proper context and presenting them from a proper perspective. By emphasizing certain facts and shading or withholding others, a writer or speaker can create an impression that is miles away from reality. Telling the truth is more than stating the facts—which is a lesson we need to remember whenever we encounter a news report.
This essay is by Kevin T. Bauder, Research Professor of Historical and Systematic Theology at Central Baptist Theological Seminary. Not every one of the professors, students, or alumni of Central Seminary necessarily agrees with every opinion that it expresses.
Sepulchre
George Herbert (1593–1633)
O Blessed bodie! Whither art thou thrown?
No lodging for thee, but a cold hard stone?
So many hearts on earth, and yet not one
Receive thee?
Sure there is room within our hearts good store;
For they can lodge transgressions by the score:
Thousands of toyes dwell there, yet out of doore
They leave thee.
But that which shews them large, shews them unfit.
What ever sinne did this pure rock commit,
Which holds thee now? Who hath indited it
Of murder?
Where our hard hearts have took up stones to braine thee,
And missing this, most falsly did arraigne thee;
Onely these stones in quiet entertain thee,
And order.
And as of old the Law by heav’nly art
Was writ in stone; so thou, which also art
The letter of the word, find’st no fit heart
To hold thee.
Yet do we still persist as we began,
And so should perish, but that nothing can,
Though it be cold, hard, foul, from loving man
Withhold thee.
Episode 49 – Next Generation Discipleship
In today’s episode, we discuss the opportunities and challenges in discipling the next generation. We are joined by Mark Massey & Scott Sivnksty in discussing the importance of investing in young people’s lives and providing them with opportunities to serve and grow in their faith.
Chapters
01:26 Discipling the Next Generation, introducing Scott Sivnksty & Mark Massey
04:30 Involving the Younger Generation
08:54 Discipleship without an Agenda
11:19 Challenges Faced by the Next Generation
15:28 Unique Difficulties and Distorted Values
22:38 Encouragements and Opportunities for Discipleship
24:57 Impact of Discipleship on Young People
27:04 Recommended Books for Discipleship
32:18 God’s Work in Personal Lives
Takeaways
- Investing in the next generation through opportunities to serve and grow is crucial for discipleship.
- Discipleship allows room for God to direct in young people’s lives.
- A hardship to discipling can be the tech world, but the church provides a stark alternative to what the world offers.
- Looking back to God’s blessings in Gen 1, we can see how the world has distorted God’s order. Focusing on the ways God has created us, gives us a stable and accessable foundation to teach discipleship.
- God is at work in our personal lives, directing us into new seasons and refocusing our lives. Praise the Lord for his working!
Book Suggestions and Recommendations for Discipleship Study:
- John Flavel, Keeping the Heart: How to Maintain Your Love for God
- Deepak Raju, Rescue Skills: Essential Skills for Restoring the Sexually Broken
- Paul Tripp, Lead: 12 Principles for Leadership in the Church
- R. Kent Hughes, Disciplines of a Godly Man
- R. Kent Hughes, Disciplines of a Godly Young Man
- J. C. Ryle, Thoughts for Young Men
- Oswald Sanders, Spiritual Leadership: Principles of Excellence for Every Believer
- Bill Hull, The Disciple-Making Church: Leading a Body of Believers on the Journey of Faith
Full Transcript:
Ep. 49: Next Generation Discipleship
Micah Tanis, Host:
Welcome to the Central Seminary Podcast today. We’re glad you have joined us. We’ve got a special episode for you this week. We come to you from the road. We’re over visiting Camp Chetek. They have an annual conference (Tweakage) of all the camps that come together in this year. They are at Camp Chetek. Almost 275 people from camps all across America have come together to share ideas. It is a great opportunity to meet many of the camp directors and those who are involved in camping.
As my life has been a part in great impacted by the ministry of camping. My father, who’s camp director at Camp Chetek, was saved through the ministry of camping and I had an opportunity to serve at camp. So what I wanted to do in a podcast episode is to take some questions. I’ve got two men here that are deeply involved in camp ministry of Scott Sivnksty and Mark Massey (MAT Biblical Counseling ’08), who each dedicate their lives to serving in both (church) ministries and then in camping ministries specifically.
I wanted to bring some questions just of how we think about discipling the next generation. Specifically, maybe pastors, if you’re listening, thinking about that age group from 18 to 25 of opportunities that you would have for discipleship and the encouragement that there is in Christian discipleship within our churches. So I’m just going to introduce these men. Here I have Scott Sivnksty. Scott, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining us. Can you tell us a little bit about your ministry, where you’re rooted at and then some of the camp involvement that you have?
Scott Sivnksty: Sure. I am based in Raleigh, North Carolina. I am a full-time evangelist. I served as a youth pastor for almost seven years before starting in evangelism in 2005. And then I’ve actually been coming to Camp Chetek since 2006. Usually speaking one or two weeks of camp. And then in 2009, I believe, your dad asked me if I would consider coming on as the Director of T.E.A.M., our servant leadership program here at Chetek. And so I grudgingly told him that I would do it for one summer. Yeah, we’re entering our summer of T.E.A.M. directing Lord willing that we get to see this.
MT: I love the acronym of T.E.A.M. Teens Entering Active Ministry.
And just the teens that come being a part of that because we got to work together. Back in 09, beginning that program, really steering it towards a discipleship focus and seeing the great impact of that. Now to see 15 years later, where some of those kids are in ministry, pastoring, pastors wives. It’s really neat to see some of the impact that they’ve had in serving the heart of that.
SS: Yeah. A lot of neat, I wouldn’t want to say success stories, but you see God. Working in ways in certain people’s lives that you would have never dreamed. And yes, there are always some of those stories, sadly, where you have kids that they come and they have this great potential and they seem like they’re getting it and they go out and they turn aside. And you have those casualties of spiritual warfare, which you never like to see, but on the flip side, seeing how so many of the young people that have come through T.E.A.M. over the years. And how it’s impacted their lives and to still today have people that will come and tell me that some of the most impactful time in their lives was when they were on T.E.A.M. and that it continues to impact them and to direct them in their lives. It’s a pretty huge blessing to just have a small part with that.
MT: Thank you, Scott. We also have an alumnus of Central Seminary, Mark Massey. Mark graduated in 2008 with a Master of Arts in Theology: Biblical Counseling. So you’re putting that into practice. Mark, tell us a little bit about your ministry and I would say ministries that you’re involved with.
Mark Massey: Well, I work with Victory Academy for Boys over in Amberg, Wisconsin, northeast corner, north of Green Bay. We’re basically a boarding school, six to eight kids. We work with them each school year to help them figure out their spiritual journey a little bit, help them get back to kind of a trajectory of growth and being willing to be influenced for God. As they make their life choices and that kind of thing. And we disciple families in that process, understanding that we have kids for like nine months and it’s not a nine-month process, it’s a life process. So we wanna help parents get back in the place of being able to be that influence that God wants them to be, whether their kids are turning 18 or not. It continues on, so. And help them with that.
MT: Thinking of the question of discipling the next generation, what are opportunities that you guys have seen for this? Maybe a pastor that’s listening is thinking through, “Hey, I’ve got an 18-year-old kid that’s just getting out of high school and they’re maybe unsure of what the next step is for them in their life.” Opportunities that they could have for discipleship. And we have an exciting opportunity within our world today. Maybe we’re thinking, “Hey, there might be a kid that would go off to Bible college and there’s discipleship that’s inherent in that. I’m thinking about other kids who might take another trajectory of maybe a trade school or something that they would have.
What are discipleship opportunities that a church can use the natural gathering of the body to strengthen up some of those young men and women that are there?
Scott, I’m going to ask you what you see maybe even in evangelism opportunities as you go around to the churches. What ways do you see that the younger generation, this next generation serving that you’re excited about?
SS: One of the things that I’m seeing a little bit more of that has been missing for a while is that we are getting pastors and leadership that are willing to give opportunity for our young people to begin to engage more in the current local ministries that they are in. So rather than having to wait till they’re 18 to begin to serve, which I think is way too late personally, they’re giving kids that might be 10 or 11 years old little opportunities. No, obviously they’re not teaching a class or running the junior church program, but they might be helping to straighten up chairs, take out trash, be a greeter at the door, all those things facilitate service. And all of those things do a major thing of impacting someone towards ministry, regardless of that might be full-time preaching ministry or not. And then I know that there have been youth pastors, even when I was a youth pastor, that there are men that are seeking to take the opportunity to get their youth group involved in being able to be a part more of the services and sometimes having a designated youth service and young men that are willing, they give them an opportunity to study, prepare, they help them out and let them give like a 10-minute challenge and so forth. And regardless of whether those young men go on into the full-time preaching ministry, you’ve at least begun to facilitate a taste about ministry.
And so investing in that way, hoping more opportunities, for our young people to begin to engage when they’re younger in the local church. I feel like the local church needs to be the primary realm of where we are facilitating ministry, other than the home. Our Christian parents need to be at the forefront of that. But in coordination with that, then our local churches facilitating more opportunities, be they very small, but to where the kids are doing more than making a decision about serving the Lord and serenading their life. They’re now getting the opportunity to invest alongside and they’re being further, you know, hopefully, through the teaching and preaching, they’re being encouraged, they’re being challenged and confronted with different areas that they see are meaningful to living in regards to serving the Lord. And then yet they’re also shown that you’re not perfect. You need to grow. But while you’re growing, you still need to be serving. And guess what? Here’s a way that you can serve.
That to me is some of the things that it’s not as widespread as what I would like to see it, but it is something that has been developing and it needs to continue to. And I think that’s gonna continue to make a huge impact on what we see as far as people being more discipled and more willing to use their lives for the Lord in different ways. Yeah, seeing it from that young age.
MT: That’s an excellent way to look at the next generation, seeing, hey, what opportunities not waiting is as long to that point. Right. To say, hey, how can I get them involved right away? Mark, I know you served as an elder for many years in your church. What were even some of those ways that you saw opportunities to involve the younger generation, to develop them, to bring them up in that discipleship?
MM: I think helping them see that they provide value. Like even a 10-year-old wants to be thought of as valuable. And, you know, that obviously starts in the family. But also within the church context, you know, if they’re ushering, that’s a value. And they’re thanked for that. Not, you know, not awkwardly built up or falsely built up, but they truly are. They’re being a help. And then I think one of the big ways I think we correct that is we’re just giving them things to do that we don’t want to do. Sure. And I think that’s like when we have an intern, yeah, go get the coffee, go dig that ditch, you know, kind of thing whenever those may be valuable things to do, but we also need to make sure that we take part of our lives and give to them. Right. So we are we are saying I want to be involved in your little life to help you grow into what God would have you do.
Maybe God will use you in something someday as a plumber, as a guy that works for Culver’s or if a guy does whatever, or, you know, he may use you to teach Sunday school or something. And, and, and as we give those responsibilities, it can create a sense of, Hey, I, I kind of, I kind of handled that, you know, at 12, I kind of taught that little Sunday school class to those kids in VBS, you know, or whatever. And that was fun. That was fun. And they get energized. They get all of a sudden now they’re passionate about, I could actually communicate something at 10 years old. You know, I think that has a lot of value and it challenges them. And it also allows you to see where to entrust more responsibility, which I think is super cool.
“we also need to make sure that we take part of our lives and give to them”
SS: I interject with that. What he said is spot on. And the thing that I was thinking of when he was talking was that as pastors, as youth pastors, as camp workers, or other parachurch ministry workers, we need to learn to disciple without an agenda. True love. True love. Right, true love, and being willing to let God direct their lives, not me being the orchestrator. You’re not going to see those results because you’ve been operating off of a pragmatic philosophy, which is too prevalent in ministry across the board. We need to see that discipleship is about investing in people’s lives so they will develop a closer walk with God and that they will want to not only, I mean you really can’t dichotomize these two, but not only do they want to live for God, they want to use their life for God. Because living for God is going to be using your life for God. One of things that we teach here on T.E.A.M. is listen, God has a purpose and a plan and a use for you right now. He wants to use your life right now. So let’s engage that. We do that. We’re going to see a difference.
“God has a purpose and a plan and a use for you right now. He wants to use your life right now. So let’s engage that. We do that. We’re going to see a difference.”
MM: I think, you know, where we hear this pessimism about the next generation, we have pastors that are like, well, I don’t have any preacher boys going to college. So, right. You guys are awful. You need to get your hearts right. All the boys just play their video games. Yeah. And really terribly unhelpful. Yes. Like because frankly, you’re trying to cram all these square pegs and round holes in the corners are getting beat to pieces. You can’t keep doing that and expect that, for one thing, it is a very high calling to be called into vocational, full-time ministry work. And we’ve kind of deadened that a little bit. Not that I’m saying that all pastors are elevated. I’m just saying it’s… It’s elevated to a different kind of life sacrifice. So it’s a different level in some sense in that way, but they’re people and there are times when more people are led to Christ in a church by the plumber guy in town than the pastor. And that’s okay. The evangelist plumber, praise God. So getting people to understand that this 50s to 90s mold of “You’ve got to do these things to be used of God” is hitting us in the backside, so to speak, that we’ve tried to cram so many people through that in a wrong way that now we’ve got a generation backing away from it going, “I don’t really want that.” You know, so then unfortunately we see them sit in a coffee shop sipping coffee and we’re like losers. When really what we should be doing is saying, “Hey, how’s it going? Let’s go get coffee together.”
“And let’s talk about how are we impacting the world in our little world here? Who do you know? Who are you playing volleyball with? Who are you hanging out with? Who are you working with?”
So that we have a chance to really share the gospel intrinsically the way it was done when Jesus and the disciples were doing. I like that. I’ll just say models must be pretty good. The Master kind of did that.
MT: Even just thinking about the whole church and generational discipleship from the top down, even thinking about the beauty of a congregation. It was Spurgeon who was asked, how did you get such a great congregation? He’s like, I didn’t do anything, the congregation begat the congregation, right? Story after story was told of somebody just having a conversation after church and leading somebody else to Christ. And even Spurgeon said as a pastor, that wasn’t me guys. That’s the Word doing its work.
And that essence of discipleship that we’re talking about, that encouragement.
Looking at this next generation, what are some unique challenges?
Maybe just historically, but right now, what are some of the struggles, maybe unique struggles? I know we have struggles in every generation, but what are some of those ones that maybe this generation is struggling with that we can be encouraged that the word meets it.
Scott, what are some things that you see as just unique difficulties that this generation is facing?
SS: Well, I think, you know, obviously the tech world has become a magnificent part. When I was a youth pastor, I didn’t have to deal with cell phones for the first few years, which I know that’s really ancient, right? But here’s the thing. That is way back. It is. Yeah, I started as a youth pastor when I was 12, but midway through my youth pastorate, cell phones started becoming more popular. They became more accessible. That began a dramatic change to having a much easier way of communication, entertainment, isolation, and so forth. And so now we have kids and of course, with the progression of our technology, I mean, you can live your entire life on a phone now, and you don’t have to interact face-to-face with people. It’s interesting that Proverbs tells us that the person that isolates themselves loses wisdom. Right. They don’t get how to make decisions about values. They don’t live the real-world life. And that’s the struggle, I think, we’re seeing. Is an erasure or a complex distortion of values. Though I think the generation, there are in the generation that would say, well, I love God and I want to do what God wants. Right. But they’re still sitting in the coffee shop.
And to heighten that part of the additional problem, which has always been a problem to some degree, it’s been that there are so many parents that, especially when you begin to come into the preteen and teen years, they begin to withdraw themselves more and more, they begin to take a little, a bit more of a hands-off approach with their kids because teen years can be very challenging, like any stage of life. And that’s how they were raised. And so, and they let their kids stay on their phones for hours and hours and hours. They let them isolate themselves. They don’t engage them. They don’t challenge them in different respects to their personal walk with God, with being involved in church, with being involved in home things in which they can serve, and they just kind of, so they kind of facilitate this fear of living that becomes very, you know, because they are granted the opportunity, but here’s the amazing thing. When we begin to invest and we are discipling them and we’re engaging their lives and they begin to invest in all the different areas of service, it’s amazing how that kind of just fades and it disappears. And we’re not trying to take away their love for having technology and so forth. We have to live by technology in this world, whether you like it or not. But what it does is it begins to help put some things in a better perspective. So those are, I mean, I think that’s one major thing. I think we could probably talk here all day about some of the other major things.
I think that one of the things you see is that isolation, again, it creates a scenario where values and judgments get distorted because they’re by themselves, but they’re not. They’re outside the church, body, and the safety that God designed in that accountability and encouragement and admonishment, the preaching of the word. Those things kind of get minimized. You may have the same amount of hours, but by the time you get done with it, that phone and all the influences and influencers, they have 10 times the amount of time or 20 times the amount of time in a given week of influence over that thinking. So I think if we were to pull to other things, other things are kind of a result of that. The way our culture teaches about finances and money gives a whole new purpose for work. It is outside of scripture and marriage and sexuality. We know that’s a train wreck.
So whenever you take, you look at Genesis and the blessing. The blessing of God was over sexuality and intimacy with your wife. It was over work and it was over eating and enjoying food and blessings of your labor. All of those are train wrecked with our culture. And we have to pull back to that. And I think that’s refreshing. When we look at what the optimism is, all this other stuff isn’t really satisfying. So ultimately, when we drive back to scripture and look at the purpose of God, that’s where I think we reach the next generation and it creates an opportunity because we are so antithetical or absolute opposites of the world now. Whereas in the 50s, 60s, and even 70s, we were still Christianized in our country enough that we were kind of integrated with all of that. That’s done. I mean, it’s done. We’re not that anymore. We have to be separate, which I think is exactly where God flourishes in reaching hearts and people.
MT: What are some of the excitement that you see for this next generation? What are things that you are encouraged about these?
MM: Well, whenever you see the train wreck, you know, whenever the guy comes to you, he’s 19 and he’s like, this phone is eating my lunch. I can’t even have a decent relationship with a girl. I can’t keep my mind right. Whenever we show him the reality of the truth of God’s Word and the hope of Christ and the freedom that you, that’s like Christ died on the cross, man, was for all this garbage. And we could be free from that. I think that gives the next generation a passion for, well, then this is what I want to live for. This is awesome. Tell me more. And again, you have to engage relationally to have the time.
And I think that’s probably one of the big frustrations for the younger generation coming up is the next generation is so busy, unfortunately, dealing with their own finances and marriage relationships and struggles, the cultural pressure they feel that they’re not doing the job with coming up people, with two captured by other things.
It’s a struggle. And I mean, as we know, I mean, inflation, you know, instead of, instead of being able to live reasonably with, you know, $40,000, now we’re talking $50,000, $60,000, which results in more time away doing and focus and there’s a lot of pressure on our culture, our biblical church culture right now on the outside.
MT: Scott, what are encouragements you’re seeing as in these opportunities for discipleship? Even just as a result of that.
SS: Well, to me, what is encouraging is that we can bring upwards of 32 kids per T.E.A.M. session and at the end of three weeks time by proper biblical teaching and preaching on servant leadership and aspects of the Christian life that intertwine with that. And by a lot of, we do a ton of personal one-on-one interaction. I do, all of my counselors do. And here’s the thing, we take kids that come, some of them very broken, some of them very indifferent and apathetic. Some of them that are, you know, they’re just kind of, they’re becoming,
They just kind of become indifferent because of there’s just no, they’ve been led to think that their life is pretty much just a hopeless thing without direction. And then when they, as we seek to invest and teach and preach, the lights become, they come on with these kids and they begin to recognize that God is not some big angry God. He’s a God that cares for them. He wants to safeguard them. He loves them. And he’s a God that he doesn’t just have a future plan for them. He has a current plan for them. And right now, and so this week, guess what? Today, God’s plan for you is that you get to serve him by doing the dishes in the dish pit. And God’s going to somehow use that to impact some kid. some way that we don’t understand how what doing dishes is going to be coordinated by God to impact to them where they end up receiving Christ as Savior, or they make a decision as a young Christian or as a Christian teenager that’s going to begin to really transform their lives. And our kids get to, they begin to realize that and they recognize what 1 Corinthians 15:58 says “our labor is not in vain in the Lord.”
And they begin to realize that I am as Ephesians 2:10 says, “I am a workmanship in Christ” that God has formed for specific purposes to accomplish for him. And that means that I can I can do this. I need to be doing this. And then as they engage and as others around them are engaging that are of similar ages, they get excited and they they get into it. And we have again, we have former counselors and other T.E.A.M. members that are in full-time preaching ministry today. We have former T.E.A.M. members and counselors that are serving faithfully in their local churches. They have regular vocational jobs, which is great. And yet they are serving God faithfully. They are excited about the Christian life. And it’s, I think the encouraging thing is that we hear again, the pessimism of kids just don’t want to do anything for God today.
No, here’s the reality. When you’re willing to invest yourself, and when you’re willing to make the sacrifice, and when you’re willing to get out of program mode in order to really, I’ve already used the word invest, but to really dig into those kids’ lives, which requires a lot of sacrifice. But when you are willing to do that, guess what? Those kids soak it up. And it impacts them. I would say that the majority of the young people that have come through T.E.A.M. over the last several years, they would tell you that when they have left, it’s completely, it’s been something that God has used. And it’s not because it’s a program, it’s because we’re showing them what true servant leadership is. And by discipling and working with them so that their lives kind of grow and change, they recognize, hey, I need to be growing and changing; not because this is what’s gonna get me in good favor with God, but because this is how God blesses and directs my life, and this is what makes me a more fit vessel for the master’s use. That changes your whole outlook. That changes your whole perspective.
“When you’re willing to invest yourself, and when you’re willing to make the sacrifice, and when you’re willing to get out of program mode in order to really, I’ve already used the word invest, but to really dig into those kids’ lives, which requires a lot of sacrifice. But when you are willing to do that, guess what? Those kids soak it up. And it impacts them.” Scott Sivnksty
MT: This has been a neat conversation to be encouraged about discipleship, to be strengthened in the equipping ministry that churches are called to and the whole body gets to be a part of this. As you men think of even just resources to give to our listeners, is there maybe a book that you would either encourage in that deception process or one that’s been in current read that you have found helpful or something that you could put forward as a suggested read for some of those marks you have?
MM: The book that comes to my mind is I’m like three-quarters of the way through it and it’s a tough chew is John Flavel’s book, Keeping the Heart. Yeah, it’s just I mean, yeah, it’s Puritan. That’s not, you know, easy to it’s true and true and true. But man, you think he didn’t even have the Internet. You have a phone to deal with the hard thing. He’s just nailing it that we have to think through. And it’s so practical. That’s what’s really weird about some of the Puritan writers is it’s just so intensely practical of the daily life of how to think through guarding what impacts your heart. That’s very good.
And I think there are a number of books out on sexual identity, sexual struggle stuff that I think good to find those books. Deepak Raju’s got a book out on Rescue Skills that I’m reading right now that it’s just some of it’s a lot of reminder. I’ve been doing this a while, but a lot of it is just it’s good fresh thinking of, you know, listen carefully, craft questions carefully, but dig deep with people. They need it. If you treat deep problems superficially, people will walk away shaking their heads. And I think that’s, if you want to talk about the pessimism, sometimes we look pessimistically because we’ve failed to draw people in. And I, because I think the generation 18 to 25, they’re looking for hope. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.
“If we give them real hope, if we really do open the scriptures and show them Jesus, they’re not just nibbling at it like a crappie, they’re sucking that down like a bass. I mean, they got it and they’re gone with it, you know, kind of a thing. I think that’s valuable.”
MT: Scott, any any book that maybe you’re reading or one that would be a great discipleship study takes take a young person to I would for personal study and read.
SS: I think Lead by Paul Tripp is a great book. Yeah, I don’t know that that’s necessarily one that you would take per se a teenager through, but it might would be a great book. It’s something that I know that I’ve even worked through with some of my counselors on T.E.A.M. and helping them to catch the idea of what discipleship, what true leadership is, is influence. If you want to just get to the bare bones, leadership is influence. One-word definition. And so with influence, you know, I think Lee just does a great book, a great job of really integrating how that looks in some very practical ways.
I think Oswald Sander’s old book on leadership, I forget the title: Spiritual Leadership. I think that is a classic work and I know these are old books, but I think that is a classic work that has so much wealth in it for the person who is seeking to invest himself in other people. And then another reference that again, you wouldn’t take a teenager through or, you know, maybe a college student through, but I think would impact how you look at how you can invest in them would be Bill Hull’s book, on The Disciple-making church. And not that you’re going to utilize everything from the book, because he even says that, but there’s a lot of great principles and things and ideas that can really help with that idea. And so that’s a little bit different angle where I’m coming from.
MM: I would add in, I just actually just saw it back there on the table, J .C. Ryle’s Thoughts for Young Men. We actually did a study guide for that and made it a missions trip focused with our boys one year, about several years. But writing out the study guide and digging into that was amazing. And then watching the guys again, that’s an old guy. I mean, this is old, this long is old, but spot on for the exact same struggles because these kids are just like the kids from the first century. I mean, they’re people. These are people and they’re there. I mean, think about it. They’re struggling through the same things we are. I mean, yeah, absolutely.
SS: I do see now here’s a good book. It just came to my mind because God is gracious. But Disciplines of a Godly Man by Kent Hughes. I think that that is a fantastic book that you can definitely take young people through. And I’ll be honest, I don’t think that you’d have to relegate that just to young men. Although there are some particular areas where, yes, it’s gonna be more poignant, but I think that even young women can be helped by a lot of those things because they’re biblical principles is what it boils down to. So that is an all-encompassing aspect there and it’s just a really good read and very, very sensible.
One question that we love to ask our guests on the podcast is a way that God is working in your personal life, whether that’s your ministry, your family, what’s something that you can just praise God for? And it’s sweet to think about that because we have to testify God is involved in our life of neat ways. Scott, what’s a way that God has been working in your life, maybe family or ministry?
Scott Sivnksty: Well, one of the things that God has used over the last little over three years is he’s changed my ministry of evangelism. We had because of some various needs of our three boys from the academic realm, we had to put them into a Christian school, which meant that either I had to pull out of evangelism entirely, which I was fine to do or else my wife who is a nurse start working full-time. And so we were praying about the decision to make.
God graciously opened the door for my wife to become a director of nursing at an assisted living center. And so what that caused though for me is I had to evaluate how am I going to carry on my ministry of evangelism. Well, so here’s what happened. I knew I could not be on the road six to nine months out of the year like I normally was. So what I have done is I have taken away of during the year, the course of the year, I have begun to cut, I have cut back pretty substantially on the number of meetings that I will take per year. Now what that has done is that has given me more time with my family for one, but what it has also done in a wonderful fashion has given me and my family the opportunity to be engaged in our home church in ways that we had never been able to before. Because when you’re on the road six to nine months out of the year, you love your church, you love being at your church, and you try to enlist, but there are things that are limiting because of that. So I get to serve.
Now, I get to serve in some specific areas that I would have never been able to do, and I absolutely love it. My wife gets to serve in some ways now at our church that she would have never been able to do beforehand. All three of my boys, have been able to get engaged in their youth group and all of them have been serving in different aspects in our local church that they would have never had the opportunity had we not had to alter kind of the direction of our ministry.
And so because of that, that has revitalized me. It just, you know how it is when you just, you get re-impassioned, right? Because of the encouragement, because of the great teaching and preaching of God’s Word, because of the regular fellowship with people that are your particular church people. So to me, that has been a huge blessing over the last three years that has just, it’s refueled me, it’s refreshed me, and I feel like it has helped my perspective significantly in the area of ministry and serving the Lord. And I’m super excited about it. I’m thrilled to be able to do it. And it excites me even more when I get to come then for the summer here at Camp Chetek and further get to invest my life into these teenagers that come in our program and then hopefully go back to their homes and their churches and their communities with what we have tried to give to them. So yeah, I absolutely am thrilled for that blessing.
MT: Praise the Lord! Mark, what’s the way that God’s working your personal life?
Mark Massey: I think as you were speaking, I wrote down the word seasons.
You know,
you have seasons of life where you do different things. You know, you may not pastor all your life. Right. You may not be the lead pastor all your life. You may not be an evangelist all your life or whatever, because God has used that season to prepare you for this next season,
which is really cool to look at it that way as opposed to burnout. I’m going to go do something else. You know, it’s really allowing God to shift your priorities in your life to what is next that He wants done. I think it’s super.
For me, I feel like I’ve been poked in the eye by God this past, you know, few months or year or so just to make sure that I’m not getting so and invest in the people at each, I call it tier, each age group that I have connection with so that I don’t, I’m not always pressured to build this, the next person that’s going to replace me or to build the next person is going to fill this hole in the ministry or something like that. That’s been good. It’s also been kind of a poke in the eye living within this culture and even the struggles of my own use of the internet, you know, like, just not wasting my life on it. And gleaning from it, its value, there is great value there. But, oh man, you can erase all of that value by wasting the time that you do have on it and that kind of thing. So that, I think, has been good.
In that process, God has kind of refocused me on the Word. And I think if I could say anything as an encouragement to everybody out there less time on the internet more time on God’s word. Yeah. It is I mean, mean, it’s good to hear all these great speakers and I, you know, I’m all for it. Really. I think it’s great. At the same time, there is nothing that will replace just read the word. And I think as we refocus on the word, what happened like right now, I’m just hitting Acts chapter 10. And in Acts chapter 10, I’m like, these people are dying. These people are being killed, they’re being beaten and imprisoned, and they love God with all their hearts, and they’re reaching their world. And I think for me that’s creating a stage of life. I’m almost an empty nester-ish working at it. I’m thinking about how does this next stage look for the all-in disciple of God?
That’s kind of where I’m being challenged. I’m excited about it. I’m scared to death in some ways and I’m tired. You know, I feel like I’m getting old. I can’t do this anymore. At the same time, it’s a new invigoration to get the resurrection power of Jesus at the forefront of thinking. And that comes through the word.
Through the word. “Let the word dwell richly” Col 3:16.
MT: Awesome. Well, thank you, men, for being on the podcast today. And I appreciate you listening in to the Central Seminary podcast. I hope it has been an encouraging conversation for you as you see and have opportunity to disciple the next generation that is in your church. So thank you for joining us and I hope you have a wonderful week.
Mark Massey has served with Victory Boys Academy since 1995, and as Director of Wild Heart Adventure Camp.
Wild Heart Adventure Camp is a Christian adventure camp devoted to teaching young men how to have a passion for God and adventure. We take two weeks to train our campers in three core areas: spirit, skills, and service. These life points provide the frame-work for our times of spiritual instruction, wilderness excursions, and team-building challenges.
Scott Sivnksty and his family are members at Community Baptist Church in Garner, NC. During the summers, Scott serves as the Director of the T.E.A.M. Program at Camp Chetek for high school sophomores-seniors.
Camp Chetek’s purpose, as a fundamental Baptist ministry, is to glorify God by using the controlled environment of Christian camping to help churches of like faith and practice fulfill the great commission to evangelize the lost and make disciples of those who believe.
If you have an idea or suggestion for future podcasts, send us a note at communications@centralseminary.edu
Central Travels
Throughout the year, you may see us at a conference or seminar in your area. This offers a chance to connect with prospective students and our alumni. We’d love to have you stop by. Bring a friend by our booth to learn more about Central Seminary or grab a pen and remember us in prayer.
This week Dr. Matt Shrader visited Appalachian Bible College in Mt Hope, WV to share about Central.
Some upcoming travels:
On April 8-9, we will be at the Pastor’s Toolbox at Camp Chetek.
-and-
2024 MBA Ladies Retreat, St. Cloud
Fri-Sat, April 12-13 with Amy Herbster on “Thinking Heavenward”
If you’re in the area of one of these events, drop us a note at info@centralseminary.edu.
Do you know of a prospective student? Someone who desires theological education, ministry, or working in their church? Visit this page to refer a student and we’ll contact them.
Thanks for sharing the word about Central Seminary!
What Is Conservatism?
After the Second World War, three thinkers established an intellectual foundation for modern conservatism in America. The philosophical case for conservatism was articulated by Richard M. Weaver in his book Ideas Have Consequences. The link between political and economic freedom was established by Friedrich Hayek in his volume The Road to Serfdom. A comprehensive history of the development of conservative thought came from the pen of Russell Kirk in The Conservative Mind. These three authors were later joined by William F. Buckley who, in addition to providing further development of conservative ideas, established the vehicles through which these ideas were popularized. Among these were National Review, a journal of opinion, and Firing Line, a television show that appeared on the Public Broadcasting Service. Buckley also sponsored the Firing Line Debates, bringing together people from all sides of the political spectrum for reasoned conversation about the ideas and issues that divided them.
One thing that made Buckley’s work possible was that Russell Kirk had distilled a functional definition of conservatism. This definition, synthesized out of his exhaustive reading of the Western intellectual tradition, came to operate as a kind of sine qua non for American conservatism. It still does. The degree to which people are genuinely conservative can be gauged by comparing their ideas and actions to Kirk’s definition. All of us who think of ourselves as conservatives are well advised to keep Kirk’s definition in mind.
The original definition was presented in six points. In subsequent presentations, the number of points varied, but the content remained the same. The following is a paraphrase and summary of the features that Kirk, and whole generations of conservatives following him, found definitive for their movement.
First, conservatives believe in a transcendent and knowable moral order. This moral reality, which is accessible through both natural law and divine law, is reflected in the structure of the world itself. To defy this moral order is to defy reality. We cannot ultimately break it; it will break us. Political and social systems that ignore this moral order will bring disaster upon all who live under their influence.
Second, conservatives delight in the varieties of human expression that develop naturally and organically as people interact with their environment and each other. The genuine diversity of callings, perspectives, and cultures—including regional and local cultures—is something that conservatives love. They distinguish this genuine diversity, however, from the oppressive and false diversity that is enforced artificially and grows from abstract theories about the “way things ought to be.” Such false diversity results in a stultifying and suffocating uniformity of opinion and condition in which true diversity is crushed. Such false diversity results in a bland sameness that arises from the top-down imposition of the same things everywhere.
Third, conservatives embrace variations of condition as necessary to human flourishing. People differ in interests, advantages, ambition, industry, and opportunities. These differences naturally produce inequalities of condition. The fact that some people enjoy greater status, wealth, power, and privilege, while others enjoy less, does not necessarily point to injustice. A classless society is an impossibility in the real world. When classes and orders are artificially eliminated, their place is inevitably taken by oligarchies of elite theorists.
Fourth, conservatives perceive that human freedom is closely linked to the protection of property. The ability to expropriate property, especially without due process of law, implies the ability to take life. Property must be protected, not because such protections are convenient for the wealthy, but because the secure possession of property is a transcendental right. Where the right to property is not fully protected, justice can never be fully implemented.
Fifth, conservatives place considerable faith in traditions, forms, customs, and prescriptions as practical guides. They recognize that traditions can be flawed, and they do not oppose thoughtful and prudent change. They affirm, however, that traditions and customs have been worked out as practical methods of checking the worst human impulses and appetites. Consequently, conservatives distrust social, economic, and moral innovators and experimenters. Behind such innovation and experimentation, conservatives glimpse the will to power and the willingness to oppress.
Sixth, and arising out of the previous consideration, conservatives understand that change is not always helpful, and it may sometimes do irreparable damage to social, economic, and moral systems. They insist, therefore, that change should occur deliberately, prudently, and in such a way that it operates as a means of preserving what is best. Radical and rapid restructurings are seen by conservatives as social wildfires. The virtue of prudence must govern even good and necessary changes.
These are the six defining points that Kirk includes in The Conservative Mind. Later and in other places he teases out other points, the most important of which is the recognition of human limitations. Neither human beings nor human social orders are perfectible. We are so deeply flawed that none of us can be trusted with too much power. Checks and balances are indispensable, and those who amass power to build utopias will inevitably lead us into calamity.
This last principle is especially worth remembering during times of good leadership. When leaders are doing the right things, we face a temptation to loosen the checks and balances so that these leaders can do more of what is right. We must never forget, however, that good leaders will be followed by bad, sooner or later. The exercise of checks and balances under good leadership is the best preparation for their exercise under bad.
Kirk’s understanding of conservatism is as useful today as it was when he first published it. When we prepare to vote in an election, we consider many factors for each candidate. For example, we should judge the candidates’ character, competence, courage, prudence, temperance, ability to govern, and their stated positions on a variety of issues. Perhaps most importantly we should evaluate the principles to which the candidates swear allegiance. To merit enthusiastic support, any candidate should embody the principles of conservatism.
This essay is by Kevin T. Bauder, Research Professor of Historical and Systematic Theology at Central Baptist Theological Seminary. Not every one of the professors, students, or alumni of Central Seminary necessarily agrees with every opinion that it expresses.
from The Hollow Men (1925)
T. S. Eliot (1888–1965)
We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!
Our dried voices, when
We whisper together
Are quiet and meaningless
As wind in dry grass
Or rats’ feet over broken glass
In our dry cellar
Shape without form, shade without colour,
Paralysed force, gesture without motion;
Those who have crossed
With direct eyes, to death’s other Kingdom
Remember us—if at all—not as lost
Violent souls, but only
As the hollow men
The stuffed men.
Was Patrick a Catholic?
I spent part of my childhood in a heavily Roman Catholic area near Bay City, Michigan. These Catholics were ethnic Poles, but they had no hesitation about celebrating March 17 as Saint Patrick’s Day. For that day, at least, my classmates would be festooned with shamrocks and green. To them, Patrick was a Roman Catholic.
Certain non-Catholics in our community would explain that Patrick was not really a Catholic. He represented a strain of evangelical Christianity that remained suppressed until the Protestant Reformation. Later on, I heard this assertion repeated during my preparation for ministry.
A few summers ago, I happened to be conversing with a PhD from the Center for Medieval Studies who specialized in Patrick. She insisted that Patrick was certainly Roman Catholic. She pointed out that Patrick endorsed the doctrines that were being advanced by the bishop of Rome at that time.
The key expression is at that time. What time was that? According to the best accounts, Patrick was born sometime around 390 and died around 461. Those dates place him among the church fathers. Gregory of Nazianzus died the year before Patrick was born, and Gregory of Nyssa died when Patrick was five years old. The heretic Apollinaris died in the year of Patrick’s birth. Patrick’s life overlapped with luminaries like Ambrose, Chrysostom, Jerome, Augustine, and Cyril of Alexandria. The heretic Eutyches was about ten years older than Patrick, and Patrick died in the same year as Leo the Great. He was in his sixties at the time of the Council of Chalcedon.
When Patrick was alive, the Roman Empire, though divided and weakened, had not yet fallen. Neither the Monophysite nor the Monothelite controversies had broken out. The first of the Medieval Popes, Gregory I, would not ascend to the papal chair for a century and a third. Eastern and Western Christianity would not divide for more than five hundred years. The Council of Trent would not finally define Roman Catholicism for more than a millennium.
These names and dates are significant for a reason. During the lifetime of Patrick, neither the term Catholic nor the word Roman meant what it means today. Catholic was a Greek term, καθ’ ὅλος (kath-holos), meaning according to the whole or universal. A Catholic at that time was simply someone who agreed with the orthodox consensus represented by the Councils of Nicea (325) and Constantinople (381).
These councils had articulated a biblical understanding of the relationship of Christ to God the Father. They responded to the Arian heresy, which taught that Christ was a created being, not fully God, and that there was a time when Christ did not exist. These councils insisted that Christ was truly God, fully equal to and eternal with the Father, and of one substance with Him. Because these perspectives were advanced by councils comprising Christians from everywhere that churches existed, they were called Ecumenical, and their consensus was considered Catholic or universal Christian teaching. In this sense of the term, all Bible-believing Christians are still Catholic.
During Patrick’s lifetime other disputes arose. The most serious was the Eutychian controversy. Eutychians taught that Christ’s human nature was so overwhelmed by His divine nature that it became inconsequential. It was like a drop of wine in an ocean of water. The result was a near-denial of Christ’s real humanity. The Eutychian controversy is what led to the Council of Chalcedon in 451, where church leaders wrestled to articulate a biblical understanding of the relationship of the divine to the human within Christ. They taught that Christ was one person in two natures. He was fully human and fully divine. The person, they said, must not be divided, while the natures must not be mixed or confused.
Chalcedon did not invent these teachings. Rather, the council systematized the mainstream understanding of Christians in view of biblical teaching. For this reason, the teachings of Chalcedon have also been recognized as part of genuinely Catholic teaching, and in this sense all Bible-believing Christians today are genuinely Catholic.
Patrick was certainly Catholic in this sense. Was he also Roman? One major defender of the teachings of Nicea and Constantinople was Leo the Great, who became bishop of Rome during Patrick’s lifetime. Leo was also active in calling the Council of Chalcedon. In the western Roman empire, he was a major opponent of Eutychianism. To take the Catholic view was necessarily to take the Roman view, and in this sense, Patrick clearly sympathized with Rome.
Nevertheless, Patrick was born in Scotland, west and a bit north of present-day Glasgow. His town was on (and maybe beyond) the very fringes of the Roman Imperial influence. Patrick’s father was a minor Roman official, and his grandfather was a pastor (certainly not what would be considered Roman Catholic today). Christianity in Patrick’s corner of the world was not much influenced by the concerns of the church at Rome, at least not directly.
At this point in history, the bishop of Rome did not exercise authority over most other churches. Leo tried to increase the prestige of the Roman bishop by presenting himself as an older statesman and wise counselor to younger pastors. Even so, other pastors were known to tell him to mind his own business.
Patrick was never sent out as a missionary by Rome. He did not receive church office from Rome. To this day, the Roman Catholic Church has never canonized him as a saint.
Was Patrick a Roman Catholic? The question is anachronistic. He was Catholic in the sense that he fully embraced the Catholic doctrinal consensus about Jesus Christ. He could be called Roman only in the sense that he must have felt some degree of solidarity with Leo in the doctrinal controversies of his day. He definitely was not a Roman Catholic in any modern sense—but neither was anybody else, including Leo. On the other hand, he was hardly a crypto-Protestant either. The five solas, including justification through faith alone, were not to be articulated for another millennium. Such beliefs, while present in the ancient church, remained undeveloped for centuries.
By his own testimony, Patrick was a rebellious youth who had been reared under Christian teaching. Brought low in slavery, he seems genuinely to have turned to Christ. After his escape he matured in the faith and eventually returned to his home, only to feel a burden to reach the very people who had enslaved him. He returned to Ireland and preached Christ among the pagans, many of whom responded to his preaching. For that we can thank God, and we can nourish a hope that we may likely meet Patrick among God’s people someday. He was broadly Catholic, perhaps marginally Roman, but almost certainly a saint.
This essay is by Kevin T. Bauder, Research Professor of Historical and Systematic Theology at Central Baptist Theological Seminary. Not every one of the professors, students, or alumni of Central Seminary necessarily agrees with every opinion that it expresses.
from The Shield of St. Patrick
Patrick (c. 390–461)
I bind to myself to-day,
The strong power of the invocation of the Trinity:
The faith of the Trinity in the Unity
The Creator of the elements.
Christ, protect me today
Against poison, against burning,
Against drowning, against wound,
That I may receive abundant reward.
Christ with me, Christ before me,
Christ behind me, Christ within me,
Christ beneath me, Christ above me,
Christ at my right, Christ at my left,
Christ where I lie down,
Christ where I sit,
Christ where I stand.
Missions Week
Every March, Fourth Baptist Church hosts its annual Missions Conference, giving our students, faculty, and staff a neat opportunity to hear of the work of the gospel around the world.
This year’s missionaries were:
Dr. Andy & Jo Ellen Counterman (Latin America), Dan & Jeanne Ann Herman (Ireland), and Aaron & Rachel Houtz (Alaska).
- The Countermans serve with BEME-LA, where Andy is the Senior Director of Baptist Evangelistic Ministry Endeavors – Latin America. Dr. Counterman’s ministry includes traveling to churches to share their mission of supporting national pastors in planting churches throughout Latin America.
- The Hermans are raising support as long-term missionaries to Ireland. The Hermans served at Northland and in the pastorate before being called to foreign missions.
- The Houtz family is raising support to serve as aviation missionaries to the remote villages of the Alaskan Bush.
It was a blessing to hear of their burden for their mission fields, and the specific ways God has directed in calling them to their field.
In chapel this week, our students got to hear a challenge on James 1:22 “But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only” from Pastor Counterman. Andy started seminary at Central and completed his degree at Calvary Baptist Theological Seminary in Lansdale, CA.
Our faculty and staff also got to share lunch with the missionaries and learn more about their fields of service.
Central Seminary has always had a heart for missions. Through our Global Outreach program, God has used Central Seminary to start seminary campuses and help with training nationals all around the world! We require every M.Div. student to take our “Introduction to Personal and World Evangelism” course, and we also offer several electives on topics like the theology of missions and cross-cultural ministry. In addition, many of our students are currently serving on the mission field as they continue their education with Central Seminary. We are thankful for how God has used Central Seminary and created a “global campus” of students from all around the world!
To learn more about the missionaries listed above, visit the links in each of their bios.
To download a copy of Fourth Baptist’s Missions Brochure, click here.
Are you thinking about serving in foreign missions? To learn more about Central preparing students for the mission field, visit our programs page.
Erecting the Right Fences in the Right Places, Part 13: The Final Chapter
Over the process of a dozen essays, I have been interacting with Gavin Ortlund’s book, Finding the Right Hills to Die On. Of course, much more can and should be said, but to say it all would take a book as long as Ortlund’s. Indeed, it would take a longer book, because that book would have to address important matters that Ortlund leaves out of consideration (I’ll say more about one of those later).
For now, I’ll respond to Ortlund’s conclusion. He ends the book with final appeals to humility and to unity. I’ll address these one at a time.
First, as to humility, Ortlund rightly observes that sometimes we don’t know what we don’t know. We have blind spots to our blind spots. This realization should “make a noticeable difference in your actual interactions with people” [147]. Even in disagreement we should be willing to learn and open to new perspectives. We should always be open to adjusting our views. Still, a humble person can also be bold, as Luther was at Worms.
I find nothing in Ortlund’s exhortation that I would disagree with. The problem lies in recognizing whether we are exercising appropriate humility because we realize our limitations or whether we are merely timid because we fear the consequences of our beliefs. We must not become so uncertain of ourselves that we render God incapable of communicating truth to us understandably and authoritatively. And we must never forget that Luther’s opponents almost universally charged him with arrogance.
Ortlund is right that the way we hold our doctrines affects our fellowship as much as the doctrines that we hold. In the calculus of doctrine and fellowship, the importance of the doctrines that we believe is one consideration. The level of fellowship is another. Questions of attitude form an unavoidable third consideration. In some times and places, we should limit our message. In others, our message cannot be limited, and so our fellowship must be.
Now we come to the question of unity. A concern for unity is both appropriate and important (Eph 4:1–6). If that concern is genuine rather than sentimental, however, we must remember that unity is a function of that which unites, and that fellowship is a function of what is held in common. For any given level of fellowship, we can enjoy unity only when we share whatever produces unity at that level. Any other claim to unity is hypocritical, as is any denial of unity and fellowship when we do share those things.
We never develop legitimate unity by aiming for unity. We must aim for what unites. At the lowest level, what unites us is the gospel. At the highest level, what unites us is the whole counsel of God.
Some biblical and theological questions should rarely or never interfere with fellowship. Who are the sons of God in Genesis 6? Are the locusts of Revelation 9 symbolic or literal? Does regeneration cause faith, or is it the other way around?
Some questions should limit fellowship at some levels but not others. I have argued that differences over cessationism, millennialism, and creationism are among these. Each of these issues will affect fellowship at different levels and to a different extent.
Some questions should limit fellowship at every level because wrong answers result in denials of the gospel. The doctrines that Christians must not deny are the fundamentals. Fundamentals (whether of belief, conduct, or affection) form the boundary of Christian fellowship. No level of Christian unity or fellowship is possible with someone who denies a fundamental.
And that brings me to what I believe is Ortlund’s greatest omission. If the fundamentals are the boundary of Christian fellowship—if no level of Christian fellowship is possible with someone who denies a fundamental—then what should we do with gospel believers who pretend that they can enjoy Christian fellowship with gospel deniers? This is the key question that has distinguished fundamentalists from other conservative evangelicals.
From early on, some evangelicals (gospel believers) thought that they could commit to some level of Christian fellowship with some gospel deniers. This position was defended by Charles Erdman and J. Ross Stevenson at Princeton Theological Seminary. It was upheld by Harold Ockenga and Edward John Carnell at Fuller Theological Seminary (the school that granted Gavin Ortlund his PhD). It was embodied in the ecumenical evangelism of Billy Graham. These individuals were willing to reach across the gospel boundary and to accept gospel deniers into Christian fellowship. What to do about them?
Scripture seems clear enough on this subject. In 2 John a parallel example occurs: false teachers who appear at the door with the intention of propagating anti-gospel doctrine (7, 10). John’s answer? Don’t let them in and don’t even give them a civil greeting (10). Why? Because whoever extends even this minimal level of aid and comfort to enemies of the gospel gets a share or stake in the evil they do (11). The result will be loss of reward (8).
In fairness, these verses do not outline a specific program for dealing with liberal theologians in our denominations or seminaries. They do, however, provide a clear template. At minimum, if some Christian leaders attempt to extend Christian fellowship to gospel deniers, we should recognize that they are guilty of a serious error, and that they are tainted by the evil that those apostates accomplish. While these leaders do not deny the gospel, they do compromise its rightful place as the boundary of Christian fellowship. That is both a serious error and a scandalous one. At minimum, we should never point to such individuals as exemplary or insightful Christians. We should never place ourselves as followers under their leadership. In other words, their failure to separate from apostates who are outside the gospel boundary ought to limit their fellowship severely within the gospel boundary.
Ortlund seems to perceive J. Gresham Machen as an example worth following, and Machen’s example is relevant here. He left his beloved Princeton and founded Westminster Seminary, not because Princeton brought gospel deniers onto its faculty, but because it kept evangelicals like Stevenson and Erdman. These men were willing to compromise the gospel by extending Christian fellowship to gospel deniers. A generation later at Fuller Seminary, Carnell understood what was at stake when he denounced Machen’s actions as “cultic” (The Case for Orthodox Theology, 114–117, 120–121).
Finding the Right Hills to Die On makes many splendid points. As a fundamentalist, I welcome an evangelical into a conversation that evangelicals have neglected for far too long, and that fundamentalists have sometimes done badly. The kind of work that Ortlund has offered needs to be done and redone in every generation. On balance, I believe that his book offers insight and is worth interacting with.
As to differences, even though Ortlund and I are arguing for similar things, I would prefer a more nuanced calculus of doctrinal importance and levels of fellowship. I also consider most doctrinal differences more serious than he does. Most of all, I wish that he would address the problem that J. Gresham Machen called “Indifferentism.”
This essay is by Kevin T. Bauder, Research Professor of Historical and Systematic Theology at Central Baptist Theological Seminary. Not every one of the professors, students, or alumni of Central Seminary necessarily agrees with every opinion that it expresses.
Thou God of Truth and Love
Charles Wesley (1707–1788)
Thou God of truth and love,
We seek thy perfect way,
Ready thy choice t’ approve,
Thy providence t’ obey,
Enter into thy wise design,
And sweetly lose our will in thine.
Why hast thou cast our lot
In the same age and place?
And why together brought
To see each other’s face;
To join with softest sympathy,
And mix our friendly souls in thee?
Didst thou not make us one,
That we might one remain,
Together travel on,
And bear each other’s pain,
Till all thy utmost goodness prove,
And rise renew’d in perfect love?
Surely thou didst unite
Our kindred spirits here,
That all hereafter might
Before thy throne appear;
Meet at the marriage of the Lamb,
And all thy glorious love proclaim.
Then let us ever bear
The blessed end in view,
And join with mutual care,
To fight our passage through;
And kindly help each other on,
Till all receive thy starry crown.
O may thy Spirit seal
Our souls unto that day!
With all thy fulness fill,
And then transport away!
Away to our eternal rest,
Away to our Redeemer’s breast!
Preparing the Congregation for Worship — Ep 48 with Steve Brower & Joel Albright
In today’s episode, we consider the process of preparing the congregation for worship with Pastors Steve Brower & Joel Albright from First Baptist Church of St. Francis. We discuss the process of planning a worship service in selecting hymns, scripture readings, and prayers.
To view the worship guide discussed on this week’s episode, visit https://www.fbcsaintfrancis.com/s/Worship-Guide-March-3-2024.pdf
Chapters
06:09 Preparing the Congregation for Worship at First Baptist Church of St. Francis
07:32 The Process of Planning the Sunday Service
10:18 Introducing New Songs and Closing the Service
12:43 Resources for Planning the Service
21:27 Encouraging and Discipling Musicians
24:16 Other Elements of the Service
27:57 Encouragement for Pastors
29:48 Encouragement for Families
31:44 Testimonies of God’s Work
Full Transcript: Ep. 48: Preparing the Congregation for Worship
Welcome to the Central Seminary Podcast today. We’re glad you have joined us. We’ve got a special episode for you this week. We’re coming to you from the road. We’re recording today from First Baptist Church in St. Francis. We’ve got two pastors that are my pastors, Pastor Steve Brower and Pastor Joel Albright. So Steve, Joel, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Great to have you.
Our topic today is preparing the congregation for worship.
As congregations gather for worship each week, we can see the final result of many hours of input from the pastoral staff, from musicians, so many others that prepare the service order, the bulletin, all of those elements. And as we have preaching the Word, what is and ought to be central to the gathering of the body, it’s rightly given its place. What we’d like to highlight this week is how all of those pieces come together.
And I think that could be an encouragement even for those in the congregation to say, how does this come? We think through a pastor studying and taking that time for the service, but also there’s a great intentionality in the songs that we sing, the scripture readings, and even over time, how that can have a great impact on the congregation. And so we’re going to think through that together today on this podcast, how the hymns, the scripture readings, the times of prayer, how can that all align with a purpose over time for the service?
And so we’ll cover the questions of:
- How can pastors and church members prepare for worship each week?
- What are some ways, even as a family, that we can prepare a family for that?
- And what are some tools that you’ve found in helpful in preparing the congregation for worship?
So we’ll dive into those questions over the next few moments. But first we like to ask a question of our guests. What’s a book that you have been reading that you’d like to share with our listeners? Steve, I’ll start with you and could you just share a little bit of your background and the pastoring here at First Baptist Church of Saint Francis, Steve.
Pastor Steve Brower
Yeah, thanks Micah. Thanks also for just doing this. This is a joy. I am a listener and so it’s a joy to be a part of this as well. So thanks for the opportunity. So I grew up in Minnesota and then went off to Bible college over at Maranatha in Wisconsin, and then came back to be an assistant pastor at Grace Baptist Church in Owatonna, my home church. And during that time, then worked on my master divinity through Central. And so I appreciate Central very much. I’m an alumnus of Central (MDiv ’08). After graduating from there, I came here in 2008 to First Baptist. And so that’s the abbreviated history of it. Yeah, excellent.
Book Suggestions: Steve
So as far as a book goes, you know what? What I would probably, what I’ve been reading, like there’s always an opportunity to go back to books that have been read, especially as you know, you do messages and that type of thing. And so I just finished a section on Philippians that focused on a kind of a primer of wealth and thinking through that. And so I’m revisiting it again, Randy Alcorn’s book, Money, Possessions and Eternity. Randy has a lot of really great books that are out and some really good resources in regards to thinking through wealth. And so we have smaller books and larger books. This one is a bit of a larger one, but is really helpful, even as a resource to go back.
And then currently I’m reading Rembrandt is in the Wind. And so this is just a really, really nice book. Obviously I’m not finished with it, so I can’t give a full report. It was actually recommended to me by one of the members of the congregation.
And it is written by a pastor and it is taking a good look at art through the eyes of faith. And he goes through and identifies, you know, different artists and then looks at it theologically. And so for me as a pastor that has very little art training, but a lot of theological training, it’s really great to see it kind of meld the two and help me to, you know, think through that from that perspective.
M: Yeah, thank you. Joel, what’s a little bit of your background and a book that’s been encouragement to you?
Joel Albright
Yeah, so I grew up in a pastor’s home and Lord led me into ministry. I did my undergrad at Maranatha Baptist Bible College from 99 to 03. I graduated with a Bible degree there. Then I traveled out on the road for six years with the Steve Pettit Evangelistic Team. And that was just a tremendous experience in my life, very practically speaking.And then, so then six years later, I did my master’s degree at Northland. And then in 2011, came here to St. Francis and our family’s been here ever since 2011. So that brings us today.
Book Suggestions: Joel Albright
As far as a book goes, I’m gonna just throw out one that I’ve been working through, actually connects with this, The Theology That Sticks, Life-Changing Power of Exceptional Hymns. That’s by Chris Anderson. It’s just been a tremendous book to work through on a practical level, even with what we’re gonna talk about today.
Micah: Yeah. Excellent. To give you a little context to our listeners too, I got to be on staff on the pastoral team here at St. Francis back in my time going through Central Seminary, 2009 to 2014. I got to be with you guys, staff meetings and things. So it was sweet opportunity. I got to jump in on those when I didn’t have classes, jumped in on some of the times when you guys would be preparing for worship. But now as we’re back here as members getting to receive that blessing is a really neat thing.
So we wanted to talk about that topic and maybe you have a way that your congregation prepares for worship. Maybe that’s a bulletin that you get when you come on Sunday and to see that. Maybe there’s a way that as a church, you know what book that you’re going through. We’ve been in the book of Philippians. So here, finishing up Philippians and we’ll reference a little bit about just the last service on Sunday, how that comes together. But, there’s some neat ways for a family to be preparing your family for worship. Maybe you talk about it on the way to church. What’s pastor going to be talking about? What’s the pastor we’re going to be? So those are a little bit of the direction that we’re going for. And we have a particular practice at First Baptist Church of St. Francis. And again, this isn’t saying that everybody has to do exactly this. And what we wanted to do through this time is just think through the elements of preparing the congregation for worship and maybe what’s an idea or what’s a helpful tool that we’ve found. So.
Preparing for Worship at First Baptist Church: Weekly Worship Guide
Micah: As a member at First Baptist Church of St. Francis, we get an email each Friday with a worship guide for the coming Sunday. It lists the scriptures, the other scripture readings, and I appreciate you guys put the full scripture. You copy and paste it, you put it in there so you can read that, the listing, the songs, and even just some of the context for that. There’s specifically even a letter from the pastors giving a little context to what’s coming up. I have so appreciated that as a way to look forward to what’s coming on Sunday. So Steve, how did that come about? That’s something that you guys have done more recently.
How did you guys come to think through the process of beginning that?
Steve: Yeah, well, I appreciate that. You know, like most pastors, that’s been something that’s been a part of what we do is you sit down and you work through, you know, what the service is going to look like. Obviously we care deeply about all the elements of the service so that it isn’t something that we are just putting together haphazardly because we want there to be a specific direction, something to genuinely minister so that when somebody comes and they sit down and they’re going to participate in that, they’re able to follow along and head in a particular direction that then will actually augment and emphasize the word of God. And so it ties together that way. So when did that start for us? This particular, you know, iteration of that really kind of grew out of the whole COVID process that as we, you know, Joel and I would get together actually in my house and start doing this type of thing. And then as we moved forward from that, that became more and more, you know, something that we just began to pour that time into.
So that was really a bit of a transition time because then as we began to do it, it’s like, well, we should get this out to others. And I think Joel is really the key factor there that he has taken that bull by the horn and really wrestle it to the ground. And so he’s been the primary mover to push this forward. So I’d probably bounce that over to him to hear his thoughts about that as well.
Joel: Yeah, I think it was sort of a developing thing where you mentioned COVID and with a desire pastorally to prepare the service intentionally, there’s a little bit of a good accountability of a Sunday deadline for us or even before Sunday. And then with coming out of COVID when some people were meeting physically, some people weren’t quite yet. It was like, what’s a way that we can physically get content to the congregation who may not be present. So it kind of started that, where like, let’s get the whole service in a document and then minister to the congregation that way. And then that just helped with some good checks and balances to be more detailed about like, which stanzas are we going to sing and why are we singing those stanzas? What scripture? So like, it’s actually served as a good accountability, but also a way to minister.
Planning Ahead
Micah: How far in advance? So thinking through just some logistics of this, how, what does that look like for preparing that service? How, how do you begin planning for the Sunday service? And I’ll ask maybe one level up. So we’re in Philippians and looking at that, how many do you think you have left in Philippians? Finish it up this week? Will you grab some other topics maybe at the end of that?
Steve: Yeah. So this week we will hit one more, uh, sermon that is a little bit of a wrap -up sermon and then we’ll do one more of those. So we’ll really focus on, you know, two kind of wrap -up sermons and then we’ll be heading into Easter, you know, at that point. So from just that kind of flow, that’s what we’re looking at. And that probably gives a little insight into how far in advance is it’s like, hey, let’s look at this series and any messages in between this series and the next series. We aren’t like building the worship guide all the way out for those. We at have a direction that we’re going. And then week by week when we sit down, we begin to put that together.
Weekly Planning Process
Micah: Yeah. So what does that look like in a week? What begins, what’s the first step in beginning this document in preparation for Sunday?
Joel: So the regular thing is we’ll meet on Tuesday morning and what the context before that is, let’s just say that we’re at the beginning of the book of Philippians. We kind of have mapped out,the general flow of what’s going to be coming and a guess of what weeks will be covered, what passage. So I’ll come into that, like knowing what’s kind of long -term where we’re going to go and that helps make decisions for the immediate. And so there’s a little bit of thought, what’s a couple of weeks out, what’s next week, but then the primary urgency is shoring up what is coming up this Sunday. So, you know, so then we’ll work through, we’ll take time and just discuss what is the passage. What do we want to emphasize? And the whole time we’re thinking, okay, so then how does that connect with appropriate songs that we want to implement? What scriptures? How do the elements of prayer lead into that? So those are all kind of swirling around that then what we’ll do is just discuss it and then have brainstorms. And then that process will end on that day. And then what we’ll do is I’ll take that and over the next couple of days, kind of let it marinate a little bit. And then work towards by Friday having service pretty well completed where we can review it, talk through it, and then before we’re ready to send it out to the church.
(Download the Worship Guide
Micah: I’m gonna just look back to last to Sunday’s service, just some of those scripture references that you had in there. One that you referenced, there were two songs to be in, Come, thou fount of every blessing, behold our God, and then you transitioned into giving because of God’s grace.
What was some of the thought processes even through those scripture references? You went back to the Old Testament and to the Gospel of Mark. How did those come about, choosing those scripture references?
Joel: Yeah, great. That’s a great example of the process of talking through it because Steve was preaching in the end of Philippians 4 verses 15 through 20, which so we knew it was going to have the emphasis of like a theology of giving related to missions. And so what would complement that? Well, so we were thinking through:
- What would be an appropriate reading of Scripture to kind of make the point?
- What should motivate our giving?
- How does God view our giving?
So we just talked through a bunch of ideas and what came up in the conversation was, you know, David’s offering in the Old Testament was substantial. And then we think about like the widow’s offering, as Jesus talked about that, who was comparatively very small, but God was pleased because of the heart behind it. So we thought that’d be a good compliment to just ask the bigger question. And then bring it back to Philippians. So that was just a great and then part of the service to kind of just think through bigger picture. And then like you mentioned, the songs. We settled on the kind of major general theme of the grace of God is what should motivate our giving. And so to sing, “Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing” elevates the grace of God. We sing “Behold Our God” which talks about Christ’s sacrifice for us in His grace for us. So those were just great songs to start off with and then kind of went through right from there.
Introducing New Songs to the Congregation
Micah: Before the sermon, you guys also introduced a newer song to the congregation. You had sung this before, Show Us Christ. How do you strike that balance in even maybe introducing a new song, evenness that you placed it there before the sermon? What are some other helpful things that you found in maybe introducing a new song to the congregation?
Joel: Yeah, that’s a great question. I think it’s a balance we try to get a good feel for, for over the course of say like 12 months. How many new songs do we want to be teaching the congregation? And it’s, we haven’t found a magic formula, but we want to always be at least in some way having the congregation learn some new song. It doesn’t mean every single week. And so we felt like it was probably time to emphasize that. And so that could be any kind of a song. It could be a song that’s more emphasizing the, you know, the character of God or emphasizing the work of Christ or maybe a more testimonial song. And so this song was one that we kind of had on the docket that we wanted to emphasize for the church. And that brings out more of the prayer of the heart to have the Spirit of God illumine the heart through the Word of God. So it seemed like that would be a great one to put right before the message. So it just worked out that way. We had the instruments play through it and everybody had a handout with the sheet music so they could look at it. And then we sang the stanzas and it went really well, a great song. So we’ll probably sing that over the next couple of weeks. So that the congregation kind of have us in the repertoire and then we can pull it out any time.
The Congregations Response to the Preaching
Micah: Steve, I want to ask you one on the sort of the closing of the service, the response, the congregational response. There’s different ways that you have outlined that through the week. This week we had an opportunity to have just a time of quiet reflection during as the instruments played. Maybe what’s some variety of that and how do you come about thinking through some of the closing, the congregational response for the service?
Steve: Yeah, I appreciate that. I think there is a need to let people respond. So philosophically, we want to give that opportunity. I think there’s a danger of that becoming so habitual or rote that it fails its purpose. And so to have different ways for that to occur, I think help keeps it, keeps the purpose at the forefront of people’s minds. And so we try to communicate some of that. Hey, let’s take this time to, like you said, on Sunday, we just said, let’s hear some questions up on the screen. And as the piano plays through this song, you do business with God. But of course, then other times there, we might sing a song as a response, right? So it’s like, here is, we’re telling you, here is a good response to the Lord. You know, unite your hearts together in this response. You know, there’s a variety of different ways. And yeah, we certainly don’t have, we don’t have all the answers there, but philosophically, we want to try to give people an opportunity as well as not put it in the kind of context where it becomes maybe a negative liturgy, where it’s just like, this is just what we do. Why do we do that? I don’t have any ideas. It’s just what we always do.
“So that’s our goal. That’s our effort. And honestly, it’s good for our own souls to think through that, to say, what is a good response now? It helps drive that opportunity for the congregation.”
At least that’s what we tell ourselves, is that that’s what’s actually happening. And so we trust that that’s what the spirit of God does with it.
Resources in Planning the Worship Service
Micah: Yeah. Joel, I saw that you had a stack of books here that somewhat you’ve utilized. What are some tools that you guys have found useful, whether that’s a book or something that gives just a little context that could help a pastor who’s thinking through, hey, I really want to be intentional with how I outline the service and give some discipleship opportunities for my congregation. What are some resources you found helpful?
Joel: Yeah, a list of a few. Probably a big one is Christ-Centered Worship by Brian Chappell. Very foundational, super helpful. Another one is more on the practical end. There’s a book by R. Kent Hughes called The Pastor’s Book (Read Chapter 1 – PDF), and it has a lot of sections of just examples of service orders and just how to think through Easter, how to think through Christmas, all those types of things. So that’s something I’ll go back to just to kind of like cross -reference. And then one thing that I found helpful, because like with trying to think what songs are going to sing, why are we going to sing them, what category are they coming from in the context of what our church needs to be fed by. I’ll try to do at least some reading on the background of the hymn, and there’s a three-set volume called 40 Favorite Hymns by Leland Reichen, and each volume has 40 hymns, and it just has a nice, well-written background of the hymn and maybe some devotional thought with it, and it just kind of helps get the mind into the hymn to just do a little bit of not that that has to be brought out in the service, but it helps direct some decisions. Or sometimes I’ll look at that and go, maybe we shouldn’t sing the song. Maybe the title was tricky or misleading. Like, actually the content of the song is actually something different. And so that’s a helpful resource. And then I had mentioned the one by Chris Anderson that that’s been really, really helpful. And then one final one, Corporate Worship by Matt Merker, just a nice little book that Nine Marks puts out, just a concise, well -written kind of theology of corporate worship.
Micah: What has been some of the congregation’s feedback from this receiving that? I love to see my father-in-law, he’s got his iPad there on Sunday. He’s getting ready for it. He’s got it prepared there. How has the congregation received this process?
Steve: Yeah, I don’t know that we’ve actually like done any kind of formal feedback. And so that probably would be actually good for us to do is to reach out and just hear from the congregation in some sort of like systematic way would probably be really helpful and instructive for us. But just from, you know, anecdotes and things like that, I think that people have received it well and have really enjoyed it. We’ve hear, you hear about people that are using the worship guide and that gives you a great joy because sometimes you wonder who are we doing this for? Is this just going out and nobody is paying attention to it? But we hear people referencing it, talking about it. And so we know that there are people that are really benefiting from it. And so all of those anecdotes that really bolsters up a pastor’s heart to say, okay, they’re catching it, right? Getting the vision, they’re embracing it. And that’s super encouraging. Yeah. Joel, I wanted to ask you a question with your musical background and working with the musicians.
Engaging Musicians in the Worship Preparation
Micah: What is some encouragement for pastors just as they’re bringing along the musicians behind how to keep them engaged either with ideas maybe they have, or then just on a week to week basis, keep them encouraged in the essential part of it that we appreciate the preaching of the word and the other elements that we’re so thankful for the musicians, the piano players that are faithful week in week out to support the worship in these elements. How can a pastor be encouraging of those that are involved in this process?
Joel: Yeah, great question. I think that, There’s a heart that, you know, as a pastor to help even disciple those who are involved, and it’s not necessarily like a major thing of bringing them through the details of everything, but just little things in the communication with them in the musical preparation. Things like, here’s the number of stanzas that we’re singing, and here’s kind of why. The tempo, the key changes, those at least in theory should be a part of the consideration of the why. We don’t just do it because it sounds cool or doesn’t sound cool, but all even, you know, the way in which we want to do a song. And so in the communication to them, I think is a good discipleship opportunity of the heart behind it of why we’re doing, we’re not doing it for a show. We’re not doing it because we want people to draw attention to, Oh, look who’s doing the music today. And so then what we’ll try to do is have a time of almost like a practice ahead of time in the morning on a Sunday morning and some of that’s before that would be good communication to them. But we’ll, we’ll go over just kind of the transitions with them. I’ll go over some of that, or if it’s just a piano that day, I’ll get with the piano player and go over like tempos and just that we’re on the same page and hopefully it’s a bigger picture than just musical things.
Discipleship
Micah: Yeah. You mentioned discipleship there in, in the discipleship, even of the musicians, but there’s another level of discipleship that I see on Sunday. You’ve got even your son that’s playing this, how do you bring along some of those young musicians and bring them in? What kind of discipleship is happening just in that process?
Joel: Yeah, that’s great. And obviously when you’re dealing with kids, you want to be sensitive to what God’s doing in their life and not just emphasize the externals because it’s easy to be performance driven. And so I think it’s just little touches along the way with, you know, how and why are we doing this? What’s your motive? And just being really aware of that.
Organizing the Elements of Worship
Micah: What are some of the other elements through the service? We just referenced a couple from just Sunday. What are some other elements that you have appreciated thinking through or even with this process you guys have over letting it marinate process? What are some of those other elements that you have appreciated that you’ve been able to incorporate into the service? Steve, what you’ve got different pastoral prayers, different times of that. What are some other things that you appreciate about getting to insert into the service?
Steve: You know, sometimes you have a series that is focused very tightly in the New Testament or the Old Testament from that standpoint. So being able to add in a different genre of Scripture to highlight the same point, I think is very helpful. It’s not that we necessarily draw attention to it. It’s like, hey, we’re in a letter and now we’re using a narrative from the Old Testament. But yet, thinking through that and adding those things in, I think is really helpful because it gives the breadth of Scripture as well as it gives, it recognizes, I shouldn’t say it gives, it recognizes how God uses those different genres to bring forward his truth. So those are good elements to think through. Like you had mentioned, it’s a great time to lead in well -thought out, biblically based pastoral prayer. I think that can help set the culture for the church of like, hey, these are the things that we are concerned about and that we want to pray about. There are other elements that can be added in and that we have taken advantage of. We have, since COVID, we have stopped taking an offering. And so this is another opportunity to say, hey, let’s just pause. And whereas in years past, we would have, you know, an offertory and we’d pass the plate. It’s like, let’s just remind ourselves how giving is an act of worship and maybe we have a passage, maybe we have someone from leadership or from the congregation to pray specifically for that, a singular point to bring out about it. But it just gives us that opportunity in the midst of a worship flow to intentionally highlight. It’s like, hey, this is important to us and this is how we ought to think about it. And that I think is super helpful for the congregation as well, both young and old reminders, but also training for those that are watching and learning. And it’s like, oh yeah, giving. My parents do that now online, yet it still needs to be an act of worship. And hopefully that then gives parents opportunities to reinforce those truths at home. So those are some examples.
And hopefully that then gives parents opportunities to reinforce those truths at home.
Micah: Joel, what are some elements that you’ve appreciated as a pastor and also as a musician, those elements of the service?
Joel: Yeah, I think to… The big picture categories that are always floating in our minds. This is obviously not original, but the idea of read the word, preach the word, pray the word, those kind of, and singing the word, obviously. And so not every service is going to bring out each one of those equally all the time, but to view it as a stewardship of like, we need to not neglect anyone unintentionally. So the way that we would in each one of those has a lot of things. So if you’re just talking about praying the word, there’s all different types of prayers that we should be stewarding throughout the course of several months in the worship service, whether it’s confession, whether it’s gratitude, whether it’s a pastoral prayer, and so all of those things. And then obviously singing, there’s so many different subcategories to that that we want to both be sensitive to what is the passage helping us to bring out, but then also what should we also be singing big picture as a church. So it’s kind of like a puzzle and a process to come up with those different elements that you mentioned.
Closing Encouragements to Pastors and Families
Micah: I get to appreciate it as a member come alongside the intentionality of that and just giving encouragements. What are just some closing encouragements you’d have for a pastor that’s thinking about maybe that pastor’s like, man, you guys got a team that are doing this. You’ve got all this thinking through what encouragement read you have maybe for the pastor that’s thinking through this or even the congregant who is saying, Hey, how can I be intentional about preparing my family so that. Steve, for the pastor that’s thinking through that, what’s just some takeaways that he can think through as he’s preparing for Sunday, Sunday’s coming, it’s that regular timeline, what final encouragement do you have?
Steve: I appreciate the fact that you are recognizing the team element. I do think that that is a really good thing for pastors to maximize. So the pastor is like pouring into the word and it’s like his focus is on the sermon and appropriately so but as Joel said, not to neglect those other elements. And it’s like, okay, well, how much bandwidth do I have? You know, how can I do all of that? And that’s where I’m seeking to bring in other people to help in those other processes, I think is essential. And that can happen, you know, for a pastor with, you know, a team like I have, I’m blessed to have that. But that can also happen for a pastor who says, hey, I need this help from the congregation and through a prayer and just putting it out there looking for it, there can be some teamwork that is put together. And yeah, it might look a little bit differently, but yet having somebody who is focused on bringing out those other elements and that adds creativity, that adds experience. Sometimes it’s like I’m so focused on the passage that it’s like, I need help thinking of the other elements. But sometimes that also can kind of lubricate that process. I’m so focused on the passage, these other elements are just yelling out and putting that together with another, you know, another person or persons can be really helpful. So I would encourage pastors to say, hey, let’s not neglect it. And then let’s see who God has brought providentially into our ministry that can help in this process. And I think that accomplishes then so many purposes, you know, along those lines.
So I would encourage pastors to say, hey, let’s not neglect it. And then let’s see who God has brought providentially into our ministry that can help in this process. And I think that accomplishes then so many purposes along those lines.
Micah:. Joel, for family that is week to week committed to worshiping with the congregation. What are some ways that a family as a father, maybe you could speak to it, that you can prepare the hearts of your family for worship for Sunday?
Joel: Yeah, I think in one sense it can be very simple. It doesn’t have to be complicated. It’s, I think, an awareness of what is going to be preached on that Sunday with the family. So one thing could be is let’s just read the passage that’s going to be preached. And just by the simply doing that, whether it’s part of a nightly devotions with the kids or go to bed, let’s just mention this, or maybe it’s around dinner table. But just by bringing that to the forefront, it doesn’t even require understanding a lot. Like let’s read the passage and that puts in the minds of the kids, this is important. And then also, and then a step further, an awareness of maybe what songs we’re going to sing. And so maybe it’s singing them with the kids sometime throughout the week, or maybe it’s just reading it. And that again puts it to the forefront. So I think even with family elements, I think there’s a tendency to just be too complicated with it or like, I can’t lead family worship. But in some ways it’s, let’s read the Word, let’s sing the Word and let’s pray. And if you can do those three things, then the Word is central and you don’t have to be a trained theologian to be able to do that. So I say simple and awareness, and that leads to the priority of making Sunday first place that it ought to be. Excellent.
But in some ways it’s, “Let’s read the Word, Let’s sing the Word, and Let’s pray.” And if you can do those three things, then the Word is central and you don’t have to be a trained theologian to be able to do that. So I say simple and awareness, and that leads to the priority of making Sunday first place that it ought to be.
Testifying of God at Work
Micah: Thank you both for being on the podcast. One question that we love to ask our guests is a way that God is working personally in your life. One way, one way to testify of the goodness of God, that God is good and he’s gracious to us in personal, also corporate ways. We’ve gotten to think through some really sweet ways that the body comes around and supports the preaching and the worship. But Joel, what’s the way that, that God is working in your personal life, your family that you’d just like to testify? Yes. As you mentioned that one, one thing kind of an unexpected kind of little blessing. It was connected with this this last Sunday to just see God work in the life of one of our congregates who is going through a recent cancer diagnosis, and we have implemented the online to be able people can watch our services online, and that can be a great ministry to folks who can’t be here physically. And there is this one member of our church who, you know, we’re all into the details of the service and how did it go and all this, and then we get this text, the pastors get this text of this member of our church who watched and was just blessed by the Word of God. And to say that this ministered to my soul in a specific way, to me it was like, it was a super encouraging thing and almost like a little bit of a rebuke of like, God is doing with His Word such things that are way out of what we could even try to manipulate. And then was just, it was just really encouraging and humbling to say, yes, this is such, God’s word does its work and might minister in ways that we don’t know. So that was just a kind of a cool little blessing that I was praising God for this past week.
Micah: Steve, what’s the work of God to testify?
Steve: Yeah, I appreciate the question. I love this question and I love the opportunity to just be able to publicly testify about God. You know, as a pastor, there are many times that you get involved in people’s lives and it’s hard to know when to bring out those things and talk about it publicly. You’re not looking to put somebody in an odd spotlight that would embarrass them. But I would take this opportunity. There is a gal who has been going through a very difficult work situation and over the course of, I mean, well over a year, but in the last year, it’s been very difficult for her and she would talk, we would pray about it together. And as a pastor, you want to, you want to be the Messiah, even though you’re not the Messiah, you want to try to fix it. You want to try and, and it’s like, you keep bringing it before the Lord and encourage and point towards scripture. But it’s like, God has to do something if something’s going to change. And so they, this gal took some steps and put her in a position where, you know, it’s like, okay, now God, what are you going to do? And there’s just this tension of like, okay, God has to do something or, and what’s that gonna look like? And like two weeks ago, we were talking after the service and I was asking her about it again and she just poured out her heart and wept and just praised God because in the midst of a very dark valley, the Lord opened up a door and she is out of that valley. That’s not to say everything is different. And it’s the type of thing where you look at and go, that was nothing but God. It was just God at work.
And not everybody gets to see that, but I get the joy of as a pastor being in people’s lives and being able to see that on such a regular basis. And it’s like, wow, our God is awesome.
Micah: Amen. I appreciate that opportunity to testify of God’s grace. And I thank you men for being with us on the podcast. For all our listeners, I hope that you are encouraged by the faithful preparation of your pastor and all that are involved with it. And we’re so thankful for the ways that we get to come alongside a central seminary to encourage and strengthen, to assist the New Testament churches. And this is just one of those ways. So we hope you have a wonderful week. Thanks for listening.
For all our listeners, I hope that you are encouraged by the faithful preparation of your pastor and all that are involved with it.
Thanks for listening to the Central Seminary Podcast. Our mission at Central Seminary is to assist New Testament churches in equipping spiritual leaders for Christ-exalting biblical ministry.
Since its founding in 1956, Central Seminary has sought to provide serious students of God’s Word with robust theological education as they prepare for ministry. We have graduates around the world who are serving in countless ways to spread the gospel and proclaim the name of Jesus Christ. Find out more at our website, centralseminary.edu.
About the First Baptist Church of St. Francis
The mission of First Baptist Church is to lead people to Jesus Christ and grow together as faithful disciples.
If you have an idea or suggestion for future podcasts, send us a note at communications@centralseminary.edu
Alumni Highlights: Spring 2024
Highlights from our alumni serving in Christ-exalting biblical ministry worldwide.
On Monday, March 4, Pastor Seth Brickley (MDiv ’16) and Eureka Baptist Church (St. Croix Falls, WI) hosted their 3rd Annual Pastors Gathering. Pastor Seth has served as pastor at Eureka since 2017.
Pastor Matt Morrell (MDiv ’02) led discussions on the topic of preaching with conversations on:
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- The Priority of Preaching
- The Preparation for Preaching
- Pitfalls & Problems in Preaching
Other alumni taking part in the Pastors Gathering were Pastor Dave Stertz (MDiv ’14) from Sunrise Bible Church (North Branch, MN), Pastors Rory Martin (MDiv ’17) and Nate Wagner (MDiv ’22) from Liberty Baptist Church (Eden Prairie, MN), and Micah Tanis (MDiv ’13), Director of Communications at Central.
“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.”
Dr. Jeff Rich (MDiv ’12), has served as Pastor of Grace Community Bible Church (Richfield, MN) since its founding in 2009. Last week Pastor Rich spoke in chapel on “Four Aspects of the Light of the Gospel” from Luke 11:14-28.
Dr. Dan Miller (MDiv ’90, ThM ’98), lead pastor of Eden Baptist Church (Burnsville, MN) spoke in chapel yesterday on “The Demonstration of God’s Sovereignty” from 1 Kings 20.
Read Pastor Miller’s recent article on Preaching Lessons from John Chrysostom at DesiringGod.
Matthew is in his 17th year with the 204th Army Reserve Band at Ft. Snelling (after 4 years on active duty with the 76th Army Band and 10th Mountain Division Band) as a trombonist, pianist, Emcee, and drum major. You might also catch Matthew on WCTS Radio reading the daily Bible verse.
Luke Tanis (MDiv ’18) serves as a missionary in Malta. In February Luke hosted a young adults fellowship with almost 40 in attendance.
Luke, Anna, and their three children (Theo, Layla, Arlo) will be returning to the States for a summer furlough to visit family and supporting churches. (Read Luke & Anna’s Winter 2024 Prayer Letter)
Pastor Steve Brower (MDiv ’08) has served as senior pastor of First Baptist Church of St. Francis, MN, since graduating from Central. Steve is our guest this week on The Central Seminary Podcast (Ep. 48 Preparing the Congregation for Worship).
Pastor Jared Page (MDiv ’21) serves at Fourth Baptist Church of Plymouth as Pastor for Students and Seniors. Jared shared some great insights on Ministry to Seniors on The Central Seminary Podcast (Ep. 47).
Pat Passig (MABS ’99) stopped by the Central booth while attending the CoRE Conference at Bob Jones University on “The Return of Hope: Depression in the Local Church.” Pat continues to take classes and serve in women’s counseling in Greenville, SC. Pat served in the Central library for 37 years.
For our Central alumni, if you’d like to share an update from your area of ministry, visit the Update Alumni Contact Form.
Erecting the Right Fences in the Right Places, Part 12: Young Earth Creationism
Gavin Ortlund’s book, Finding the Right Hills to Die On, explores how different doctrines affect different levels of Christian fellowship. Top-rank doctrines are essential for Christian fellowship, second-rank doctrines affect some levels of fellowship, and third-rank doctrines should not be permitted to hinder Christian fellowship at any level. One doctrine that Ortlund selects to illustrate the third rank is young-versus-old-earth creationism.
Full disclosure: Ortlund has critiqued me on this topic in the past. A decade ago I questioned the Gospel Coalition for embracing “progressive creationists” among its leadership while claiming to defend biblical authority. Ortlund responded with a refutation of more than twice the length of my original essay while still leaving some of my main contentions untouched. I did not rejoin then and would not now if Ortlund had not chosen creationism as an example doctrine over which Christians should not divide.
In Finding the Right Hills to Die On, Ortlund offers one short and one long reason for seeing the age of the earth as a third-rank doctrine. The short reason is that this question does not practically affect the “organization of a local church.” My short reply is that if the purpose of a church includes equipping its members against secular myths such as evolution, then getting a biblically correct answer certainly is important.
Ortlund’s longer answer consists of an extended appeal to church history. He cites theologians from the Church Fathers through recent evangelicals who have held to some version of old-earth cosmogeny. I concede Ortlund’s factual data, but I don’t think it means what he claims.
Doctrines are developed at specific defining points in church history. Before those defining points, we can find articulations that are vague and even mistaken. Theologians do not usually take the trouble to work through a doctrine until its significance has been clarified by some challenge. Then they do the hard work of study and definition, after which the imprecision of earlier articulations is no longer permissible.
In the case of creationism, the defining point was triggered when Darwin published his Origin of Species in 1859. The timing was not propitious for doctrinal definition, however, for two reasons. First, the Christian world was still stinging from (mainly false) accusations that biblical literalism had resulted in the Galileo fiasco. Nobody wanted a repeat of that episode, so many were prepared to make exegetical concessions to a putatively scientific theory. The second reason is that almost simultaneously, religious liberalism began to take over the mainline denominations. Conservative Christians had to defend other fundamentals of the faith. Such individuals were in a poor position to pursue new doctrinal exploration. They were only able to turn seriously to that task during the 1950s and 1960s.
But the Galileo problem is a red herring. Evolution has never been a scientific theory, nor could it ever be. No theory of origins can qualify as science. Scientific method builds upon empirical observation and quantification, leading to the development of cause-and-effect explanatory hypotheses, the verification or falsification of which is subject to repeatable experimentation. No theory of origins can ever be developed in this way. Evolution is naturalistic philosophy or theology masquerading as science.
Imagine Adam coming to full consciousness immediately after creation. The world around him is filled with processes that are already functioning. Fruit hangs on trees, suggesting that arboreal reproduction has been going on for some time. The trees themselves are mature. Indeed, adult instances of every form of life abound. The world is full of empirical evidence that it has a long history. Then God comes to Adam and tells him that this is only day six. What should Adam trust: his senses or God’s word?
The situation in which we find ourselves is no different. Our awareness of the processes has expanded, as has our ability to measure the time those processes take, but our inability to penetrate the veil of beginnings remains intact. If we want to know where we came from, then we have no choice but to take God’s word for it.
God has not expressed Himself ambiguously. While the prose of the creation accounts is elevated, it hardly exceeds ordinary human ken. The language does not contain jargon, technical terms, or complicated structures. Even a child can grasp what the text says; only a skilled exegete can muddy it up.
Some exegetes do just that. They argue that Genesis 2 is out of sequence with Genesis 1, that day six must have involved too much activity for Adam (or God!) to accomplish, and that Genesis 2:4 uses the word day in the generic sense. All such matters are easily explicable, as a quick trip to any decent young-earth creationist web site will show.
What is not explicable is how God could pronounce His creation very good (Gen 1:31) if it included agony, terror, and death, which any old-earth view requires. How could death have entered the world through one man’s sin (Rom 5:12) if it had been going on for millions of years beforehand? There is no good old-earth answer to this question.
The truth is that nobody ever denied young-earth creationism just by reading the Bible (including those Church Fathers whom Ortlund cites). No, the fundamental problem is one of embarrassment. Those Fathers were embarrassed by accusations made by their opponents, so they backtracked from a plain reading of the text. Nowadays, in an age when evolution has been mistaken for science, and science has been mistaken for Truth, some evangelicals are just as embarrassed to hold a young-earth cosmogeny. I would personally be more embarrassed to appear at the Bema and have to explain why I ignored the plain words in which God chose to communicate.
Ten years ago, Ortlund criticized me for not being willing to “advance the conversation.” The truth is that I don’t see a conversation to advance—not a serious one. Evangelicals who reject young-earth creationism spend massive amounts of energy and creativity to try to explain why Scripture cannot mean what it plainly says.
But young-earth creationism is important. Too much hangs on it to relegate it to third rank. Through creation we understand who we are, what our nature is, what place we occupy, what we are made for, and what went wrong. We understand why we sin, why we suffer, and why we die. We understand what Christ had to do to make right what was wrong, and we glimpse what a restored creation must look like. To some extent, any old-earth view is going to skew the answers to these questions.
Not all old-earth views are equally obnoxious. Not all of them need to hinder Christian fellowship at every level (though some—for example, the denial of a historical Adam—should). To suggest, however, as Ortlund does, that “we should not divide, at any level” [126] over these issues is simply astonishing.
This essay is by Kevin T. Bauder, Research Professor of Historical and Systematic Theology at Central Baptist Theological Seminary. Not every one of the professors, students, or alumni of Central Seminary necessarily agrees with every opinion that it expresses.
When Adam Fell
Lazarus Spengler (1479–1534); tr. Johann Christian Jacobi (1670–1750)
When Adam fell, the Frame entire
Of Nature was infected,
The Source, whence came the Poison dire,
Was not to be corrected,
But by God’s Grace, which saves our Race
From its entire Destruction.
The fatal Lust, indulged at first,
Of Death was the Production.
Since Eve by Satan was enticed
T’indulge her Deviation
From God’s Command (which she despised)
And ruin the Creation;
What should be done? but God the Son
Must in our very Nature
Retrieve our Loss by Blood and Cross,
And save the Rebel-Creature.
By one Man’s Guilt we are enslaved
To Sin, Death, Hell and Devil;
But by another’s Grace was saved
Mankind from all this Evil:
And as we all, by Adam’s Fall
Were sentenced to Damnation;
So the Man-God has by his Blood
Regained our lost Salvation.
Erecting the Right Fences in the Right Places, Part 11: Premillennialism
In his book Finding the Right Hills to Die On, Gavin Ortlund lists two specific teachings as third-rank doctrines over which Christians should not divide. The first is the timing and nature of the millennium. Under this heading he also introduces the various views on the timing of the rapture. The second teaching includes the recency of God creating the world and the nature of the days of creation. I propose to devote one essay each to interacting with Ortlund about these topics.
Why does Ortlund believe that the millennium ought to be treated as relatively unimportant? First, he argues that the millennium is only taught in one passage of the Bible (Rev 20), and that passage is difficult to interpret. Second, he suggests that differences over the millennium have fewer practical consequences than differences such as modes of baptism or whether to speak in tongues. Third, he notes that while the Christian church has reached no consensus on the millennium, premillennialism has historically been the minority view, while dispensational premillennialism is a relatively recent development. These reasons, he suggests, should “at least, discourage us from elevating [premillennialism] as a litmus test of orthodoxy” [134].
This last statement simply means that Ortlund doesn’t see premillennialism as a fundamental of the faith—but few if any theologians do. I can agree that premillennialism is not a fundamental, but that does not mean (as Ortlund states) that “we should not divide, at any level” over this issue [126]. While premillennialism is not essential to the gospel, it should and does matter to some levels of Christian cooperation. Differences over the millennium might well lead us to limit our fellowship at some levels rather than limiting our message about it.
The reason is straightforward. Premillennialism is not an isolated doctrine. It exerts considerable influence over other doctrines within the system of faith. It carries significant practical implications. Its denial opens the door to serious error, and Christians have regularly gone through that door with disastrous results. Furthermore, premillennialism is directly related to our understanding of the faithfulness of God.
Ortlund is wrong when he says that premillennialism is taught in only one text of Scripture. Granted, only one text mentions a thousand years, but the duration of the millennium is not the critical point. The crucial question is whether God will have a kingdom on earth that is ruled mediatorially by the Lord Jesus Christ and in which the Abrahamic, Davidic, and New Covenants will be exhaustively fulfilled. Thus, one’s view of the millennium will largely determine one’s view of the present and future status of Israel as a people of God. It will influence one’s understanding of which biblical promises and blessings can be claimed by the church. It will affect one’s perspective on the integration of Mosaic Law into Christian living. It is both cause and effect of the hermeneutic that one uses when interpreting unfulfilled prophecies—or even in deciding which prophecies are still unfulfilled. It ties directly to one’s understanding of concepts like the kingdom of God, the throne of David, the people of God, and the present status of the New Covenant.
The practical effects of premillennialism (or its denial) are just as far-reaching. Premillennialists have regularly been blamed for escapism and a lack of social ethics. They in turn have sometimes charged their opponents with a lack of urgency for missions and evangelism. While both accusations are overblown, it is beyond clear that views of the millennium affect philosophy of ministry. If you doubt this, try to imagine John Hagee and Doug Wilson getting along as pastors in the same church.
Most seriously, the non-premillennial views have regularly opened the door to the heresy of antisemitism. This is not to say that all amillennialists or postmillennialists are antisemites or that no premillennialists are. Nevertheless, replacement theologies (which undergird most non-premillennial eschatologies) have regularly been used to justify the most wickedly anti-Jewish sentiments and actions, while premillennialism resists being turned in that direction. Amillennialism in particular has a long history of legitimating the persecution of Jewish people.
The shape of the millennium does at certain levels even impinge upon the gospel because it affects how we can claim the faithfulness of God. In Romans 8, the apostle Paul gives Christians a wonderful description of the commitments God has made to believers through Christ. The chapter begins with no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, and it ends with no separation from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. These glorious promises, however, raise a serious question. Hasn’t God made promises before, namely to Israel? And hasn’t God failed to keep those promises? Why, then, should we trust God to keep His promises to us?
This question clearly touches the gospel itself. If God can take promises made to Israel and transfer them to the church, then He can just as well take the salvation that He has promised to church saints and transfer it to someone else. Paul’s answer, contained in Romans 9–11, is that God will certainly fulfill His promises to Israel. The only eschatology that satisfactorily answers the question with which Paul grapples in this passage is premillennialism.
In brief, even though premillennialism is not a fundamental of the faith, it cannot be demoted to a third-rank doctrine. It exerts too much influence throughout the system of faith, it affects too many practical areas, its denial opens the door to a grave error that many Christians have actually committed, and it provides the most coherent answer to the question of whether God can be trusted to keep His commitments.
Differences over the millennium do not have to affect every level of Christian fellowship. Even fundamentalists do not claim that they should. Nevertheless, to insist that they should have no effect upon any level of fellowship is astonishing. In fact, churches that value the kingdom of God ought to expect significant cohesion among their members in their understanding of the nature and timing of His kingdom. If those churches require a particular millennial view, then they are acting well within their purview as the pillar and ground of the truth.
This essay is by Kevin T. Bauder, Research Professor of Historical and Systematic Theology at Central Baptist Theological Seminary. Not every one of the professors, students, or alumni of Central Seminary necessarily agrees with every opinion that it expresses.
Hark, the Song of Jubilee
James Montgomery (1771–1854)
Hark, the song of jubilee
loud as mighty thunders roar,
or the fullness of the sea
when it breaks upon the shore;
Alleluia! for the Lord
God omnipotent shall reign!
Alleluia! let the word
sound from city, hill, and plain.
Alleluia! hark, the sound
from the depths unto the skies,
wakes above, beneath, around
all creation’s harmonies;
see the Victor’s banner furled;
sheathed his sword, he speaks— “Tis done!”—
and the kingdoms of this world
are the kingdom of his Son.
He shall reign from pole to pole
with illimitable sway;
he shall reign when, like a scroll,
yonder heav’ns have passed away;
then the end: beneath his rod
his last enemy shall fall;
Alleuia! Christ in God,
God in Christ, is all in all.
The Man Who Loved Both Doc And Cedar
Not many people could say that they had a close personal relationship with and were mentored by R. V. Clearwaters and B. Myron Cedarholm, but Gerry Carlson could.
Gerald Bruce Carlson was born August 17, 1941 to Dr. George and Evelyn Carlson in Chicago where his father pastored Tabernacle Baptist Church, the very church where the Conservative Baptist Movement held its organizing meeting in 1943. When Gerry was five years old, his family moved to Minneapolis so that his father could assume the pastorate at Lake Harriet Baptist Church and also teach part-time at Northwestern Theological Seminary alongside the seminary dean, R. V. Clearwaters. George Carlson and R. V. Clearwaters were close allies in the first decade of the fledgling Conservative Baptist movement as they served together on various local and national boards and committees. George served as the president of the Minnesota Baptist Convention and as Vice-President of the Conservative Baptist Association.
Gerry loved living in beautiful southwest Minneapolis, and it was quite a jolt to the serenity he enjoyed there when his father accepted a call to the Marquette Manor Baptist Church on the southwest side of Chicago in 1954. But an even greater shock to Gerry, his mother, and his three sisters came three years later in 1957 when his dad was killed in a plane crash as he was headed to Canada on a hunting trip. A man Gerry affectionally called “Uncle Myron” broke the tragic news to Gerry in the living room of his family’s parsonage.
Myron Cedarholm would also preach at George Carlson’s funeral in what Gerry refers to as “the greatest gospel service I have ever known” (unpublished paper, “Doc and Cedar,” 7, March 2017). Gerry’s relationship with the Cedarholms began early in his life as his family would stay with them every summer at their cabin on Lake Nebagamon in northwest Wisconsin, and “Cedar” (as Gerry would refer to him in his adult years) became “somewhat of a surrogate father” to Gerry in the years following his dad’s untimely death.
After Gerry graduated from high school in Chicago, he attended Pillsbury Baptist Bible College where he earned a bachelor’s degree in Bible and Pastorology in 1963. During his college years he served as a youth leader at Fourth Baptist Church in Minneapolis, and it was here that Gerry met his future wife, Connie. They were married in 1965, and their wedding ceremony was conducted by their pastor, Doc Clearwaters. The Lord would bless Gerry and Connie with three children and four grandchildren during their 58 years together.
Upon graduation from Pillsbury, Gerry and many of the other future pastors who had commenced with him traveled north 65 miles to attend Central Seminary. After receiving his M.Div. degree from Central Seminary in 1967, Gerry accepted a call to serve as youth pastor at Calvary Baptist Church in Normal, Illinois, where his friend, Bud Weniger, was pastor.
Gerry’s time in Normal was anything but normal in the wider world of northern Baptist fundamentalism as the Conservative Baptist movement splintered and as different views of educational leadership strategy affected schools like Pillsbury College. Gerry was on the Pillsbury campus for College Days with his youth group in May 1968, just three days after Myron Cedarholm had resigned, and he stayed in the Cedarholm’s Presidential House (where Cedar had been confined by the board in “house arrest,” as some referred to it). Four weeks later, Myron Cedarholm participated in Gerry’s ordination service in Normal, and Cedarholm took the occasion to make the first public announcement that Maranatha Baptist Bible College would be starting up that fall (personal email to author, July 17, 2009).
Gerry would minister in Normal for three years before returning to Minnesota in 1970 to take the pastorate at the newly planted Faith Baptist Church of St. Paul. He spent eight years there and then moved on to work for the American Association of Christian Schools from 1978–1988. He served as both Field Director and Executive Director. Two items of note occurred during these years: 1) Gerry received the honorary Doctor of Divinity from Maranatha in 1983, and 2) Gerry was invited to speak at Central chapel in 1986 with Doc Clearwaters in attendance from whom he received a warm welcome. Commenting on this last point, Gerry later wrote that “time can heal wounds and I was glad for that” (“Doc and Cedar,” 17).
God’s next appointment for Gerry was the position of Vice President at Maranatha Baptist Bible College, where he served from 1988–1994. It is likely due to his 16 years of educational experience with AACS and Maranatha that led the board of Pillsbury Baptist Bible College to appoint Gerry as the sixth president of the institution in 1994. But his tenure at his alma mater would last only one year.
In a short book Gerry wrote about his stint at Pillsbury (What Happened at Pillsbury? [Nystrom, 1996]), he explained why he experienced great frustration with the faculty who did not want to head in the same philosophical direction that he (and the board) felt the school should go. In an email to me, Gerry described his one-year presidency as “my suicide mission” (email to author, July 1, 2009). I think it is fair to say the knot of difficulties Carlson experienced in that one-year stint were many years in the making and far too complex for anyone to untie in the short amount of time the board and faculty desired.
Leaving Minnesota for good, Gerry joined the staff at Positive Action for Christ in Rocky Mount, North Carolina. He would work with this ministry longer than any other in his life while serving as Director of Marketing and Development from 1996–2014.
In 2014 the Carlsons moved to Maranatha Village in Sebring, Florida, where Gerry helped with marketing and development for the retirement community up until the Lord took him home on January 30, 2024.
The Lord used Gerry Carlson in pastoral ministry (13 years) and Christian education (35 years). His labors in Christian education included serving on the administrations of two Bible colleges, providing assistance to Christian schools and colleges in his work for AACS, and promoting the publication and distribution of Bible curriculum for churches and Christian schools. His mentors included significant figures in the Conservative Baptist movement. These men included his father, George, his father’s ally and friend, Doc Clearwaters, and his “surrogate father,” Uncle Myron. I believe all three men would be greatly encouraged by who their mentee became: a faithful and kind friend to many, a loving husband and father to his family, and a fruitful and diligent servant in the Lord’s harvest field.
This essay is by Jon Pratt, Vice President of Academics and Professor of New Testament at Central Baptist Theological Seminary. Not every one of the professors, students, or alumni of Central Seminary necessarily agrees with every opinion that it expresses.
May the Grace of Christ Our Savior
John Newton (1725–1807)
May the grace of Christ our Savior
and the Father’s boundless love,
with the Holy Spirit’s favor,
rest upon us from above.
Thus may we abide in union
with each other and the Lord,
and possess in sweet communion
joys which earth cannot afford.
Larry Pettegrew (1943–2024): A Life Lived to the Glory of God
One of the favorite books in my library is a festschrift written in honor of Larry Pettegrew (published by Shepherds Press in 2022). I value it so highly not because of its content (though the 14 essays are certainly noteworthy) but because of the personal note of thanks Larry wrote to me on the title page. One sentence stood out to me: “We’ve been friends for a long time, and your faithful ministry has been a blessing and encouragement to me.” This sort of Barnabas-like behavior was so typical of Larry; he had the knack of saying the very things to you that you wished you would have said to him first.
Larry Pettegrew was born and raised in Danville, Illinois. His home church was First Baptist Church, where he met his wife Linda in junior high. They were married in 1966, the year after he graduated from Bob Jones University with a Bachelor of Arts degree. God blessed their union with three children and eight grandchildren, and 2023 marked 57 years together.
After college Larry moved to Minnesota so he could attend Central Seminary, where he earned the M.R.E., M.Div., and Th.M. degrees. In 1968 Larry began his teaching ministry, which would span more than 50 years. He would serve on the faculty at Pillsbury Baptist Bible College until 1980 as the head of the Christian Education and Bible departments. During his time at Pillsbury, Larry earned the Th.D. degree in Historical Theology from Dallas Theological Seminary in 1976. His dissertation on the Niagara Bible Conference is still considered the best resource available on the significant contribution that annual gathering provided for dispensational theology.
From 1980–1995 (with the exception of one year) Larry served in several capacities at Central Seminary: professor of systematic and historical theology, registrar, and academic dean. After his first year at Central, Larry moved to Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary, where he would teach for only one year (1981–1982) before coming back to Central. It seems the main impetus behind Larry’s return to Central was the encouragement of his friend, Doug McLachlan, who was the newly installed pastor of Fourth Baptist Church and who wanted Larry to assume dean responsibilities at the seminary.
In 1995 the Pettegrews moved to Sun Valley, California where Larry worked as a professor of theology at The Master’s Seminary, a position he would hold for 12 years. At the age of 64, when many might have considered retirement, Larry believed the opportunity to serve as Dean and Executive Vice President for the fledgling Shepherds Theological Seminary in Raleigh, North Carolina, was a challenge too exciting to pass up. So in 2007 Larry’s final professorial position began, and he served there until his death on January 30, 2024. Shepherds’ president and founder Stephen Davey described Larry’s work this way: “[He] set out to graciously and wisely construct the structure of our school. He added trusted faculty members and worked hard with our seminary board as we pursued accreditation.”
Consider with me four aspects of Larry’s ministry that demonstrate his good stewardship of the manifold grace of God evidenced in his life: church ministry, writing, teaching, and mentoring.
Although Larry never held a paid position on a pastoral staff, he certainly loved the church and faithfully served in a local church at every one of his teaching posts. Whether he was teaching adult Sunday School, helping other local churches as interim pastor, or serving as a deacon, Larry left an indelible Christ-shaped impression on his brothers and sisters in the local church.
Besides his dissertation on the Niagara Bible Conference (which appeared in 5 parts in the Central Bible Quarterly [19.4–20.4]), Larry published The History of Pillsbury Baptist Bible College (1981) and The New Covenant Ministry of the Holy Spirit (2013). He also edited and was the main contributor to Forsaking Israel: How It Happened and Why It Matters (2020). Additionally, he wrote numerous journal articles and book essays. His writing was always clear, well-researched, and immensely helpful.
Larry’s teaching ministry was where he shined most brightly. His students would agree that his classroom instruction was marked by his humble demeanor, clear and careful scholarship, and compassionate concern for students. I was one of the students greatly affected by Larry’s willingness to use his God-given gift for instruction and writing. He taught me church history, systematic theology, apologetics, and pedagogy. In acknowledging this I know that thousands of others in ministry today can say the same thing, whether they had Larry as a professor at Pillsbury, Central, Detroit, Master’s, or Shepherds.
One feature of Larry’s ministry that was not as well-known as his other more public activities was his role as a mentor to so many of us. In my case he functioned as a model in many ways. First, he showed me what being a wonderful friend and teaching colleague should look like by the way he interacted with my dad when they worked together on the faculty at Pillsbury. Second, he taught me how to be a seminary professor and Bible teacher by how he exemplified love for God, excellence in the teaching craft, thorough knowledge of his subject, and humble concern for every student. Another discipline Larry demonstrated was prayer for his students. Many years after I had graduated from seminary Larry remarked to me in passing, “I pray for you every Thursday.” While I suspect that he could not have prayed for all of his former students in this way, it buoyed my own spirit significantly that I was on his prayer list, and I have been so affected by Larry’s example that I, too, pray for a long list of former students on a weekly basis. Third, Larry exhibited for me how to be an effective seminary dean. While I caught only glimpses of this as a seminary student, I learned much more in the years after I became the dean at Central in 2010. We attended a dean’s conference together, and even there, I saw him actively taking notes and pursuing ways he could improve in this calling.
Central’s chancellor Doug McLachlan described Larry in an email he sent to him in July 2022: “I believe you, Larry, have fleshed out this [paradigm of the simultaneous expression of holiness and love] admirably in the world of Christian scholarship, both in your proclamation and defense of the truth of God’s Word. Countless students and servants of the Lord have been helped by your commitment to this Christlike paradigm of doing ministry and mission as a theologian…. Larry, it is this virtue especially that has characterized your ministry for a lifetime—approved; no need to be ashamed; a good steward of Holy Scripture; rightly handling the word of truth. We express our gratitude to you for this ‘long obedience in the same direction.’”
I praise the Lord for finding Larry faithful and putting him into the ministry, and I also praise Him for His kind providence in allowing me to study with, learn from, and enjoy the friendship of a man of God like Larry Pettegrew.
This essay is by Jon Pratt, Vice President of Academics and Professor of New Testament at Central Baptist Theological Seminary. Not every one of the professors, students, or alumni of Central Seminary necessarily agrees with every opinion that it expresses.
O For a Faith That Will Not Shrink
William Hiley Bathurst (1796–1877)
O for a faith that will not shrink,
Though pressed by every foe,
That will not tremble on the brink
Of any earthly woe.
That will not murmur nor complain
Beneath the chastening rod,
But, in the hour of grief or pain,
Will lean upon its God;
A faith that shines more bright and clear
When tempests rage without:
That when in danger knows no fear,
In darkness feels no doubt;
That bears, unmoved, the world’s dread frown,
Nor heeds the scornful smile;
That seas of trouble cannot drown,
Nor Satan’s arts beguile;
A faith that keeps the narrow way
Till life’s last hour is fled,
And with a pure and heavenly ray
Illumes a dying bed:
Lord, give us such a faith as this;
And then, what e’er may come,
I’ll taste, e’en now, the hallowed bliss
Of an eternal home.
APPLICATION & AID